www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization The OCA and cultural expressions

Greetings all,

I don't think that cultural identities are predestined to disappear. Witness the Amish for example, and the Navajo! It is good to have a church framework that will accommodate the needs of all these ethnic groups. But I personally feel the idea that ethnic and cultural groups are predestined sustain their uniqueness indefinitely is simply a lot of nonsense. The only means to achieve that are artificial and will result in rejection by the majority of the following generation. One cannot even be assured that any of ones own children will marry into the “right” ethnic/cultural group and everything is a compromise from that point on.

It is inevitable that the younger generations will absorb more and more of the prevailing cultural milieu even as that changes. Maybe in this generation the majority language is English, maybe later it will be French or Spanish.

As had been stated in other threads by posters other than myself there is a huge tendency for the younger generations to become Protestant or Roman Catholic (due in a large extent to intermarriage) or unchurched and there is a major trend in all church groups to lose members to agnosticism and atheism. Does anyone dispute this?

If you would like your grandchildren and great-grandchildren to benefit from an Orthodox church and be partakers in the Divine Nature you had better plan for the likelihood that they would prefer to worship elsewhere. And instead of learning Ukrainian or Greek they may wish to learn Mandarin or Arabic for career purposes. This is not laziness on their part, and the more you force this issue with them the more resistance you will find. There is nothing sadder than a church with no young people in it, with the older ones not even sure that they will be buried from the church they have loved all their lives.

Immigration trends fluctuate over time, due to all manner of unpredictable circumstances and legal situations. When the tap is turned down how will the parish attract new members? If you want to sustain a church that caters to recent immigrants in preference to the third, fourth and fifth generations that congregation will betray you. They probably will acculturate to the prevailing culture too, while your grandchildren are marrying Protestants.

What do we need to do to prepare an orthodox church for the coming generations?

Michael

Dear Michael,

Well, again I don't know the U.S. situation.

But ours up here is different.

Our churches are attracting record numbers - there are some parishes with a majority of "old guard" but young people prefer young people prefer . . .

Ukrainian isn't in danger of being lost and I have taught in one of many schools where the students, the great grandchildren of immigrants, speak excellent Ukrainian. On average, they read about fifty Ukrainian books over two terms. I didn't do that when I was in Ukie school.

Our outgoing bishop suggested more English language liturgies, and parishes just ignored him.

Perhaps it is multicultural Canada or whatever.

There is a strong promotion of the language and even in parishes, like that of my in-laws, where people "no speaka da language," they want the Liturgy in Ukrainian - and quite militantly so. Go figure.

Alex

Wow, If it is as you say in your neck o' the woods I am impressed and full of admiration.

My opinions (such as they are, just opinions) are formed by my experience here in Chicago and I apologize if my generalizations are wide of the mark. Actually, I would much rather be wrong about these things than see it all unfold the way I imagine it.

Of course, Canada has some unique qualities and when you couple that with the pride of the Ukraine I suppose almost anything is possible!

Begging your understanding I will qualify my remarks to say that my personal and unscientific experience around Chicago has caused me to think this way.

God Bless,
Michael

In the contexts where I worship in Philadelphia, even with between 40-70% immigrants in the parishes, I've never argued for reducing the English content below 50%.

Much of what we used to do, we used to do in both languages: Epistle, Gospel, Creed, Prayer Before Communion, and Lord's Prayer. These were reduced to just Creed and Lord's Prayer in two languages, against my best efforts. When I chant, I add in Troparia and Kontakia in Albanian, perhaps to the displeasure of some but to the edification of others.

I think that it is an issue of accomodation. Both communities, native born in USA/Canada and newly-arrived immigrants need to be welcome. Both languages should be used!

Attempts to have a wholy English liturgy at say 9:00 AM and another in the language of newcomers at say 10:30 AM are really efforts that split the community and tell of the need for a second parish.

Attempts to have all English one Sunday and all-something else on another Sunday also result in splitting of the parish.

There are secret prayers, there are inaudibles, there are babies crying, and there are languages that we don't always understand. It is not necessary for every participant to hear and understand every word. The babies, the deaf, and the severely mentally handicapped; how much of the liturgy do they understand? Yet they are full, communing members of the Holy Church.

Worship is a communitarian effort.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Mike,

Again, it could be an Eastern Canada thing.

But then again you have the very Ukrainian St Volodymyr and Olha Church in Chicago.

And that parish really outclasses anything we have in Canada in terms of "Ukrainianness."

Our tour books of Chicago even recommend that people visit that neck of the woods to see the Ukie shops et al.

We don't have that in Toronto,to be sure!

And now with the "Fourth Immigration" of Ukies in full swing, Ukrainian culture and language is being revitalized.

It is being moreso revitalized since the incoming Ukie immigrants are very Europeanized and modern and so exercise a strong cultural influence over our youth.

Alex

Yes, Sts V & O is a marvelous example of what can and should be done, right where it is. In the heart of Ukrainian village! I am quite inspired by it for the authenticity and strength of the parish.

But someone standing in the midst of a forest may not even be aware that the forest is melting away at the edges. The Idea that "I've got mine, so I'm not worried" reminds me of a common attitude in the USA and some other countries that have no concern about global warming or the depletion of resources. From where they sit everything is OK, but the clock is ticking even if they are not fully aware of it.

The time to evangelize is now. Strong parishes should be erecting missions while they are strong enough to support them. The harvest is ready and the workers are few.

Michael

Greetings all,

I know this subject has probably been broached many times before on this forum in different ways but I'll re-submit it in this thread just for the halibut.

I think that the idea of mixing languages within the liturgy is OK as far as it is usually is done, and it will probably work with almost any congregation if necessary. But really, the job of bringing members into the faith and catechizing them begins outside the temple doorways, out in the street. If that happens, the liturgy could be 100% Greek and the new people would probably adapt to it. So mixing English, French or Spanish into the Liturgy would probably be more than enough.

The problem as I see it, is how do you get them in the door? And once in the door, what do they find there?

Doesn't the Great Commission matter anymore? We are called to evangelize. When was the last time anyone here approached non-orthodox they hardly knew about coming to church with them?

When was the last time anyone here has been approached by an orthodox believer they hardly knew who wanted to evangelize them?

The reason I ask this rhetorical question is that most people that seek orthodoxy find it alone. They are not approached by anyone. When they come to the church for the first time they need to be welcomed and assisted. They are full of anxieties and false expectations and the probability is very high that they will be discouraged in some way. Language is only a part of the complexity of this problem.

Many of our temples are situated in neighborhoods that have changed. The new neighbors may have cultural differences and language differences that are hard to cross. What means do we have to employ to get them to worship with us? Or do we not care?

When a neighborhood changes are we more concerned with where to move the church than how to fill it?

Michael

Dear Michael,

Very important points!

For many Ukies here, evangelical outreach, when it is mentioned, involves helping the "Church in Ukraine."

It means supporting seminaries and married priests et al.

And, as far as that goes, that too is part of the "Great Commission."

The Ukrainian Church needs our help and, conversely, the Church in Ukraine is revitalizing us here as well.

I don't know about other Churches, especially the one that DavidB attends (I can't let a week go by without giving him a friendly jab, you know - he'll feel left out! ), but our Church, as assimilated as it is here and there, is still focused on "da Yoo-crane."

Personally, my own faith experience has been deepened by an ever-deepening tie to the Church in Ukraine, meeting its Patriarch who is also mine, and otherwise getting to know the historical land and cultural context in which my tradition was formed.

And yet there are people who want to join the UGCC and do so where they find English language liturgies and the like.

You are right here. We need to open up to the people who are not Ukie but who find in the UGCC something that speaks to their spiritual hunger.

To ignore them would be to betray a Divine Trust in this regard.

Alex

Alex, as one of those non-Ukie UGCC members I think I understand what you are saying. I would like more English used at my parish, but I still feel very strongly about needing to keep the close ties with the Ukrainian culture as well. I am very much afraid that were we to turn into a Church comprised mostly of converts we would lose our uniquness as Byzantines. We need the ethnics and born UGCCs to keep us grounded in our Eastern Christian culture. Too often converts (and I can speak from personal experience as one three times over, as well as from observation) don't really change internally, but but only have a thin veneer of their new faith over the old. Too often former Baptists (insert the name of whatever sect), will still be Baptists underneath with a Catholic (or whatever) whitewash trying to cover it up...and the whitewash usually wears through after a time. I see it on this board and in parishes too often, in all jurisdictions...Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. Just because we can quote a book doesn't mean we are reading the book correctly or even that the book is necessarily right...even when that book comes from Rome or Moscow or Constantinople or etc. There is something to be said for Dr. John's comments about the faith being rooted in the lived experience of the community. I believe this is especially true for those of us in the looser organized Eastern Christian traditions, where we prefer not to put things of the Spirit into tidy little theological boxes. Just my humble opinion. Don

Also Alex, expect a package from Kansas soon. I finally got that little OCS prayer book in the mail to you today. Let me know when you get it. Don

Bless me a sinner, Father Don,

Well, I don't know what the UGCC ever did to deserve you, Servant of God!

I think it's just a great gift of Grace to the unworthy!

Alex

Greetings!

Of course, watch out for those rice Christians!

Every culture that receives the faith for the first time will begin to influence it's externals, that is a given. The Ukraine must have had some Greek Christians resident there before the conversion of Volodymyr; I wonder what they thought of what the Slavs were doing to their church?

We have had some interesting postings here of all the little paganisms that have been retained by our good, honest, God fearing ancestors. Does anyone doubt that they were truly converted? Anyone here have an icon corner?

The Jewish Christians didn't feel comfortable with all the gentiles in the church, and the gentiles did benefit from the old guard Jews that gave those congregations all that ethnic flavour and deep rootedness. The fact is that Christianity is not Ukrainian or Rusyn or Arabic or Greek, it is all of that and more. And its culture will keep evolving, so don't be surprised when you find yourself talking Theosis with someone with a Methodist accent.

The Roman Empire is dead, all dead and gone. Byzantium is finished. Moscow in and of itself doesn't represent authentic Byzantine culture and neither does Kyiv or Bucharest. We might think as though we have a monopoly on authentic Byzantine spirituality. But the liturgy goes on, and the Fathers still speak to us in their writings, and we are still finding the true faith.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Since you mention it, yes there was a Greek Christian colony in southern Ukraine and in the Crimea especially.

They are today still uncovering the shrines of unknown ancient Greek Saints and recently the Orthodox Church installed two such unknowns into the calendar.

There were Goths there as well, and St John of the Goths in Crimea participated in the First Ecumenical Council, along with St Nicholas the Wonderworker.

Scythians? Lots of them too and a lot are in the calendar as well, together with the assistant missionaries of St Andrew, Sts. Inna, Pinna and Rimma.

Has the Greco-Roman Empire dissolved? That is a good question!

We have inherited almost everything we have from it, including the philosophical paradigms in which we today view Christian revelation and perform our liturgical practice.

Those empires haven't dissolved, they've just readapted themselves so no one could say they aren't "modern!"

Kyivan Christianity is a reality that persists to this day.

Show me any "American Orthodox" who says his cupolas are native to Minneapolis and I'll show you a person who believes all that went into the creation of the U.S. began solely in 1776.

Adaptation is important.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath-water!

Alex

I wouldn't think of it!

Michael

Dear Michael,

Good!

Whatever people need is what the Church should provide!

Alex

Dear Mike,

Another factor is that one in ten Americans are immigrants, but one in five Canadians are immigrants.

Cultural pluralism is a fact up here and that lessens the pressure to assimilate to the Anglo-conformity model.

Alex