www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization A Few Moments

Dear Amado, You have roughtly halved the membership of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. An accurate English translation of the entire corpus of Byzantien service-books (I hope you have strong shelves) would be a very welcome development - but I stress the word ACCURATE. The translations in circulation are polemical and studiously avoid accuracy, for reasons beyond my ken.
But why should all the Greek-Catholics move to the USA? Maybe some of them like it here they are.
Incognitus

Dear Amado,

I have never hear of any plans to bring 6 million UGCC members to North America. In fact, many of our Ukrainian American (and / or Canadian) civic organizations are anti-immigration. But the fact remains that thousands have been arriving on our shores during the past decade, and they have been filling the large and medium sized urban churches. The clear loosers are the 'small town Greek Catholic Bible Belt' areas.

Our traditional view has been that we should do everything possible here to make life better over there. We have done this by integrating church, culture, and 'nation' into one very unique way of life and using this mix to support each segment. One segment does exclude the other.

Do not underestimate the achievements of our North American diaspora in aiding the old country. In fact, the new Ukrainian Republic issued in 1991 a postage stamp (it's second) to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Ukrainian settlement in Canada (ie: they recognized the Ukrainian Canadian importance to the rebirth of Ukraine). This was not hard to do, since all the postage stamps, currency, and pasports were printed at the Canadian mint in Ottawa .

As you mention, there seem to be no guarantees of events with our churches in Ukraine unfolding in a favorable fashion, but then again we heard the same negative remarks just prior to independance in 1991 (BTW, just watch what happens after the next election in October ). In any event, you have made a good point in outlining the fact that we are still needed by our brothers & sisters in Ukraine.

The unification of the Apostolic Ukrainian Churches must happen in tandem here also. The combined assets of the two churches both here and there will provide us with far more human and capital resources to strengthen our religious life.

Perhaps, it's time for the USA lost tribe of Carpatho-Ruthenians to come to the fold. This is after all the only place I know in the world where they form a separte church. The vast majority of Carpatho-Ruthenians in Eastern Europe consider themselves to be part of the larger Ruthenian umbrella group known as Ukrainians. The same is true for Canada and the rest of the world. By joining as a distinct group they would have access to many more churches, youth camps, banks / credit unions (with discounts on mortgages), new priests from Ukraine, etc... The Hungarian Greek Catholics in Montreal rent a church from the UGCC for a $1 / year. Now compare that kind of value to anything you have proposed to date . If a merger where to take place would this type not make more sense ?

I'm sure that our UGCC bishops would welcome the skills of the Anglo and Spanish members of the church. I studied Spanish and would welcome the sounds of that beautiful language in our churches. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that the Divine Liturgy could be said in Spanish once the new Sobor (Patriarchal Cathedral) is completed in Kyiv (Kiev for you Russophiles ).

I'm confident that over time the new amalgamated church would become Americanized. After all this great nation is all about being a 'melting pot'. Canada is a 'cultural mosaic' and would frown on any plans to change this. My suggestion of the Carpatho-Ruthenians uniting with the larger Ukrainian group is probably more of a realistic plan. Asking our brothers and sisters to turn their back on their families in Ukraine will not happen.

Hritzko

PS: I look forward to your comments.

Let us all remember that in the first century following the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod, those who reunited with the Church of Rome had been referred to by the Orthodox as schismatic "Uniates". Most official Papal documents back then used the terms "Oriental Rite" or "Greek Rite" for those who came back into union with Rome. It wasn't until the 1700's when these churches finally gained some autonomy that term "Greek Catholic" came into use. The term was first used by Maria Theresa, Empress of Austria-Hungary and she was instrumental in gaining ecclesiastical rights for the "Greek Catholic" churches.

I believe that there is nothing wrong with having different eparchies in America for those who want their churches to keep in some way or form(indigeous liturgical music traditions, recension
variants of the Byzantine tradition, etc.)ethnic ties.

I have nothing against the OCA and her continuing mission to have an "all American" church. But they still have seperate divisions that have their own "ethnic" bishops within the administrative fold of the OCA. Because they have seperate ethic divisions, I wouldn't say they are a non-ethnic American jurisdiction. The only "recension" of the Constantinopolitan tradition they like to promote is that of the Great Russian recension. This is only an observation, not a judgement. So when people start talking about the creation of one non-ethnic American Byzantine Catholic (or Greek Catholic if you like)jurisdiction, it would be a very difficult task to achieve.

I would also state that both in America and in Eastern Europe, there are Greek Catholics, who by their own self-determination, refer to their ethnicity as being Carpatho-Rusyn. Just because they seem to be small in number doesn't mean that they should assimilate into other neighboring ethnic groups. They have the right to exist just as the Ukrainian, Hungarian, Romanian and Slovak Greek Catholic exist.

Ung-Certez

Dmitri,

I promise, we'll take good care of the young lady for you folks

Many years,

Neil, who never thought of himself as a "Mike" before

Greg,

Which is the Hungarian GC parish in Montreal?

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

Ooopps - I'm sorry, but it would appear that it is the Romanians and not the Hungarians who are renting the church from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Toronto (& all of Eastern Canada). Romanians Greek-Catholics are also encouraged to become members of one of the two major Ukrainian Banks in Montreal so that they can get discounts on their home mortgages (immigrants appreciate this very much !).

The official name of their parish is:

Paroisse Roumaine Greco-Catholique; St-Jean Chrysostome
@ Ville Emard (Montreal), Quebec

For more information, please see this UGCC link:

Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Toron...ada (including Hungarians and Romanians) [ucet.ca]

OR

[i]Paroisse Roumaine Greco-Catholique; St-Jean de Chrysostone[/i] @ Montreal, Quebec [ucet.ca]


Hritzko

The UGCC is certainly opening it's doors to non ethnic Ukrainians. Here is an interview (MD player) with Bryan Butcher, an English speaking Canadian, who recently joined the UGCC in Ottawa (Ontario). The doors to the UGCC are centainly not closed .

Interview with Bryan Butcher - \'convert\' to UGCC in Ottawa, Ontario [ukrainiantime.com]

All of you Greek-Catholics (and Byzantine Catholics) may want to attend this UGCC national shrine if you ever have the chance of visiting Ottawa, Ontario. You may notice that is part of the city's OPEN DOORS cultural / religious visitors program. This means it is open to everyone. Anyone can visit on Saturdays to see / pray at the shrine, and they may come on Sundays to attend Divine Liturgy but must respect the rite if they are not Greek (Byzantine) Catholic (ie: no gum chewing, picture taking, etc...). Since the back of the shrine is located on the historic Rideau Canal (circa post war of 1812) you can also take a boat ride and just sail by .

UGCC Shrine in Ottawa (Ontario) [city.ottawa.on.ca.]

Hritzko

Dear Greg:

Being an "outsider," I am reining in my desire to express any further comments on this issue, realizing fully well the deep and simmering ethnic undercurrents that accompany these discussions.

However, Latin Catholics with Eastern bent such as myself will continue to lend support to the success of the Byzantine Catholic Churches, as a group, here in the Americas.

Amado

Me, too, Amado.


Porter aka Mary Jo \o/

For those visiting Ottawa, may I suggest a visit to Saints Peter and Paul Melkite Greek-Catholic Church? The iconography is a vision of heaven. For a more this-worldly delight, I suggest dinner at the Henri Burger, across the river in Hull.
Incognitus