www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Evangelism

Dear Serge,

I echo Angela's appreciation of your summarization of what we have been given to teach!
Your words reminded me of the words of Jean Danielou in his work God and the Ways of Knowing.

In your closing comments about the mission of the Byzantine Church in evangelization. I find something quite interesting since we find ourselves frequently sharing different perspectives about the relative merits of the Novus Ordo.

Do you think that it is possible, then, that God is using the Novus Ordo to lead some persons to His Byzantine Church? In that, at least, perhaps we can both find another merit in the New Order.

Steve

Please do not permit the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

JOY!

Dear Edwin,

Thank you for your kind words about my posting. To be told that my observation echoes any thought of Schmemann is certainly humbling.

I would like to share some thoughts that occurred as I reread your postings and the postings of the others in this thread. I wondered if the emphasis on polemics that you point out is not useful rather than a distraction. Could it be that the rehashing at the parish and local level of organizational, theological and practical differences is one small part of the Spirit's working out of the evangelization mission of all of the Churches?



It seems that the paradigm we're talking about is the Gospel message. That, as Serge points out so clearly, is the Good News we have been given to share. The post paradigm discussions, especially the polemics, center on the Incarnational aspects of the Good News, i.e. how God continues His Incarnation among us in the functioning of His Church(es).

These discussions are messy and heated. Sometimes they drive us to distraction. This in part precisely because they seem to take us and scarce resources from the direct work of evangelization.

Is it not possible, though, that these polemics are necessary for us to be able to concentrate on the work of evangelization? Could the polemics lead us to discussion that would have some good results:

1. We might find it easier to bring others to Christ if we share a common message about how His Mystical Body functions.

2. The clearer expression of how Christ's Body works could unleash the energy of members of the Body to focus on Evangelization. Our attention will be fully focused on the actual work of evangelization driven by Christians' growing awareness of the importance of the Church in the working out of God's plan.

3. Our discussions bring us into contact with each other. Out of this contact is a growing sense that we can reflect Christ to His world in common works of mercy. This is practical evangelization, ISTM.

In short, is it possible that the Spirit is using what appears to be wasted energies to make clearer the Good News?

Is it possible that in some sense what we are undergoing is a complement of the Christological discussions about Christ and His Incarnation and its meaning that occupied the Church in its youth as it applies to ecclesiology?

Could it be that this clarifying process is what is taking place in the polemics in the parish and diocese and in ecumenical discussion?

Could it be that all of this is precisely the working out of at least part of the evangelical mission of The Church as made concrete in The Churches?

Any thoughts ? (from anyone)
Thanks again!

Steve

Please do not permit the written expression impede the meaning or the love?

JOY!

Lance and Inawe,

I am aware of the differing emphasis between East and West. But statements that the East emphasizes Resurrection and the West emphasizes Passion is meaningless.

The glory and praise heard in the Western liturgies where there is no kneeling or any sense of penitential atmosphere is different from those many Byzantine Catholic churches where the parishioners kneel, recite the sorrowful mysteries before liturgy, have stations, and 'recite' either the resurrection hymns and/or the entire liturgy.

What arbitrary canned stereotypes one tries to use usually doesn't fit well with actual practice.

Maybe these examples are from parishes that fail to live up to those Eastern points of emphasis?

Serge writes,

That there is a God, the Source and End of all being — "I am who am', that this is the God revealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the prophets, to the Jews in the Old Testament, and that this God is Three Persons, one of Whom, the Son, became a man, Jesus who is called the Christ (messiah, anointed one), who left the Church on earth. In short, that there is a God, and Jesus Christ is God. (Sounds like a Christian version of the Muslims' Allahu akbar!) Of course, along with that go a lot of the ethical and moral teachings many other religions have (variations of the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule).


Serge,

I think you are getting my point. Thank you.

I will pray for you.

Dear Edwin,

Certainly, Byzantine Catholic Churches and parishes have much to do to achieve a true reflection of the riches of the East.

And certainly no one denies that the West somehow does NOT believe in the Resurrection etc.

The emphases are very real and they are reflected, as Lance has said, in the iconography and other tangible expressions of Eastern spirituality.

I am at home in ANY Catholic Church or Rite, yes, even the Anglican Use . . .

But the emphasis on the Passion in the West, sometimes to the detriment of the Resurrection, is a topic that has been widely discussed by Orthodox and other theologians, including Timothy Ware in his "Orthodox Church."

I just came back from Paris where I visited many Churches and Cathedrals.

They are all wonderful, but dark with large crucifixes where Christ is portrayed suffering in agony in His twisted, tortured Body.

I find the Byzantine Church to be a Church of light and Resurrection. This emphasis is also what is closer to the original Gospel message that we are all called upon to witness to.

I am sorry if you find this distinction meaningless.

It is most meaningful to me and, as I said, others who are seeking the Eastern Church out, whether Catholic or Orthodox.

Finally, the West and the East share the same faith (in the Catholic Church), but, after that, and in every which way, their understandings and traditions are COMPLETELY different. And that is as it should be within the Body of Christ.

The "meaningless" different emphases are part of our respective liturgical heritages which the Vatican Council asked us to return to and foster.

If the Roman Catholic West had historically given a little more effort at respecting our Eastern traditions, we wouldn't feel the need to spend so much time defending them today.

Also, another difference between us is that you seem to understand the preaching of the Gospel as something that is independent of the Liturgy with its Rites etc.

The proper expression of our Eastern spirituality through the Liturgy and the rest of our Rite is our greatest witness to the Gospel and the source of Grace which draws people to it and the Church.

I apologize if I have misunderstood your position and please forgive me.

Alex

Alex,

So much ink has been spilled over those differences.

Has the message of the Cross and the Resurrection been eclipsed by those debates?

Dear Edwin,

Perhaps.

But for me the Byzantine spirituality of the Cross and Redemption is what brings it home for me and many others.

We cannot ever separate the message of the Faith from the spiritual context of the Particular Church in which it is lived and consequently presented.

Our former parish priest (+memory eternal) once described the difference between Western and Eastern evangelism and missionary work.

He said that in one area he was in the Latin missionaries started to build a church, a rectory, this and that.

The Eastern missionary went to live with someone in the village, someone who was open to the Christian message.

He then began to serve the Divine Liturgy and this began to draw people to the Church.

Now, if you are asking the perfectly legitimate question if Byzantine Catholics have become too tied up with their parochial interests (no pun intended) and have lost focus on the proclamation of the Gospel, then that could very well be true.

Again, it is our history with our "Big Brother" of the Latin Church that is partly responsible for this.

There are also Roman Catholics who share this experience with us in that they suffer with the liturgical changes in their Church and, consequently, liturgical and what I would call "church-cultural" issues are important to them as well.

Also, ethnocultural identification with the Church is another reason.

But this is also to be found among ethnic Roman Catholic parishes.

But, Edwin, would you not agree with me that these people on this website are truly committed Christians who live the Life in Christ through the Liturgy, the Sacraments and their general lived experience of the Faith?

Ideally, there are 21 Rites and Churches in the Catholic Church. We can live in Christ through all of them, even if some of them have a seige mentality.

I am guilty of such a mentality as well. For me, my Christian experience is also tied in with my ethnic background. I pray best when I pray in Ukrainian and Church Slavonic. I worship best when I glorify God in the Ukrainian Byzantine Church.

But, excuse me, I want to get to reading the "True Devotion" by St Louis de Montfort!

Alex

...

[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Edwin ]

What is needed in the Eastern Church seems to be a Great Awakening.

Dear Edwin,

Ah, you make many excellent points!

Personally, I don't think we can stop the process by which Christianity in North America is being attacked by the media and the proponents of political correctness.

I think that Christians are at their best when they are not part of the revered institutionalism of society.

Evangelism is about living the Christian life in the midst of a society whose values are antagonistic towards the Gospel.

While there are those religions who answer slurs against their prophets with death threats, Christians answer with love.

As with Afghanistan, so too will Christians win this "war of values" even though many of us have "bombed out" in this respect before.

Alex

If one wants to be a Christian, ask yourself:

How much do I pray?

How much do I support my church community?

How much do I give to the poor on the street?

How much do I give to social-service agencies?

Do I fast?

Do I talk with my fellow parishoners and find their needs so that I can respond?

Do I talk with my priest and get guidance from him on how to do things in the parish?

Do I serve as a model of meekness, mildness, humility and love at my workplace?

Do I respect everyone with whom I meet?

The rest is just fluff.

Blessings!

Dr John,

Spoken like a true theologian - in every sense of the word. Such words are refreshing.

Post deleted

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

"Also, ethnocultural identification with the Church is another reason."

But Alex, it needn't be an obstacle to evangelism to groups outside of one's ethnic group.

I will cite the example of my own Greek Orthodox faith which has rediscovered its missionary vocation.
Yet, how many other Christian communities are more ethnically keen than our community? But that doesn't prohibit us from sending our "apostles" to Africa, Indonesia, South America, China, the Pacific islands, and even into the de-Christianized areas of Western Europe, with the Good News of salvation in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

No, Alex. Your Ukrainian Church is fully competent and capable of taking the Good News to the unchurched and the "heathen." You only need to realign your priorities, like we did, and, in the case of Ukrainian Catholic Church, tell the Congregation of Oriental Rites (?) to mind their own business!

The dominant (and sometimes domineering) Latin-rite Church must conform to the existential reality that the Byzantine Rite is also universal and not limited to just the traditional and historical ethnic groups, but has a good news message amd venerable (as well as practical), spirituality that all ethnic-racial groups can identify with.

However, the onion must be peeled down to the core and essence of what God created, i.e., purified of what is solely ethnic and not necessary to pristine Byzantine spirituality.

God bless and good health.

Bill

Missionary churches are healthy churches.

PS-If Byzantine Catholics don't purify their minds of the lunacy that "we are just a strange, even eccentric, ethnic mutation of pure Roman Catholicism,".... then you are dead! And you deserve to be. If the "salt has lost its savor," what good is it?

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

I don't know how to respond to all of the examples of parishes in the Byzantine Catholic Church which may or may not closely reflect the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. All I can honestly reflect upon is the one I attend.

We have been lovingly welcomed and consistently challenged to lead a holy life. We have been welcomed to serve as our gifts and vocations lead. I sing in the choir, teach an adult Bible class, assist my wife in teaching children's ECF, do monthly visitation to the homes of unchurched persons in our neighborhood, occassionally function as a sub-deacon, and assist with a monthly evangelism project.

Is this typical or not? I don't know. All I know is that I don't believe I could be happier in any Church.

Dan Lauffer