www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Evangelism

Bill,

Aaaaaahhhh! You and Serge have spoken words as delightful as Pascha.

Such a mindset will break the chains that have held Eastern Christianity for too long.

Awaken, my dear Eastern brothers and sisters, from that deep slumber! Awaken and see Christ in the Evangelical message! Rip up those list of mixed-up priorities that inhibit the Good News from getting out! Unclog the drains of your varicose ministries and reach out to those in need of salvation!

I will pray for you too, Bill.

Dear Edwin,

This discussion is excellent in more ways than one.

My comments were, for the most part, "sociological" and not "theological."

I agree that Christianity is about prayer, the Gospel, sacrifice, charity etc.

Dr. John is quite right in all this.

Bill is also quite correct in saying that any church can and should be a missionary one.

Those who are responding to you, Edwin, are speaking from their own experience or that of their immediate parish, which is fine. This is also my experience and that of my parish which reaches out to and includes in its membership five separate groupings of individuals who would normally not be found in an "ethnic" parish such as ours, including Orthodox Christians.

I am speaking in general terms, "ideal-typical" about the Byzantine Catholic Churches as a whole.

Is not this what you are asking about, Edwin?

You seem to have a conviction that the Eastern Churches are mired in their own ethnocentric and particular theological self-absorption to do much of anything about proclaiming the Gospel.

Am I right in assuming this is what you are saying?

If so, then my own answer is that this depends on particular parishes and the countries they are found in.

I have Protestant friends who believe the Roman Catholic Chuch as a whole is not interested in evangelization, only in promoting the "papal empire" of the Church of Rome.

It really does depend on your perspective.

I am a Byzantine Catholic. I spend on average five hours in personal prayer and meditation daily. I give hundreds of dollars to beggars on the street and work in a soup kitchen. I love my wife and family and acquaintances, including my internet acquaintances and friends, and wish I could carry their personal burdens on my own shoulders. Etc. etc. etc.

It is my Byzantine Church that has formed me in this way.

I am sorry but there is no "fluff" about it.

The separation of our commitment to Christ from our liturgical/cultural context in which we live and are formed is IMPOSSIBLE. It smacks of Protestantism which has, for years, gone to evangelize the world, bringing with it either British Imperialism or North American cultural domination.

We always bring our cultural/ritual context with us when we witness to Christ.

My parish doesn't go around "telling people about Jesus."

It makes people, especially new immigrants and visitors feel welcome.

We make new friends during lunch after the Liturgy. We smile and share booklets about our Faith to those who would like to know more.

We have Ukrainians, Russians, Belorussians, Irish, Italians, African-Canadians and others on our parish registry.

More and more of our visitors are coming forward to ask to be received into the Church and to be catechized.

If that isn't witnessing to Christ, then I don't know what is.

Alex

Alex,

Good for you! I will pray for you and Dan L.

I don't think the Byzantine Catholic Church is a stray cat.

I am also aware of a good number of BC parishes having the Pentecostal fire brewing in their temples and in the hearts of many a believer.

But Bill and Serge hit a nerve in trying to answer my particular question about Evangelism, not anything about the amount of one's charity or love. I know both are intimately tied to the message, but those things are the application of the Good News not the proclamation.

Thank you for your spirited response. You've added color to the topic.

Dear Edwin,

God bless you, Servant of Christ!

Alex

Alex, Alex,

"It smacks of Protestantism which has, for years, gone to evangelize the world, bringing with it either British Imperialism or North American cultural domination."

That's simple nonsense. I've known a lot of Protestants who sacrificed enormously because they felt it was their duty to bring people to Christ. I know because I have quite a few of them in my family. That's a disingenuous copout and is grossly unfair, especially since there are so few Protestants here to reply to such an erroneous remark. I think Protestants are wrong, but at least they believe strongly enough to risk ridicule when they spread what they believe to be the truth. Most Catholics I've met wouldn't risk losing their Sunday morning doughnuts and coffee to speak about their faith.

And it wasn't "North American cultural domination" that attracted my Columbian friends to "evangelical" Protestantism, it was preachers who took the time to speak THEIR language and talk to them in THEIR cultural context; you know, the way Sts. Cyrill and Methodius did for the Slavs; the way WE should be doing for those around us.

And it's not "North American cultural domination" that built the Russian Baptist Church in Tulsa, or that brings the thousands of Immigrants to Protestant services that Protestants labor at bring to the people in their own language.

If you want to see real "cultural domination," head to some of the Eastern Catholic churches I've been to. They'll be happy to shake your hand, as long as you speak Ukrainian. Otherwise, they don't want to share the True Faith. That would put it out of context. You know, I don't believe Protestants have their services in Ukraine in English. So why are you accusing THEM of attempting "cultural domination."

"My parish doesn't go around 'telling people about Jesus.'"

It sounds like your parish does some wonderful things, but perhaps they should go around telling people about Jesus. I have often heard the claim that we Catholics are ashamed of the name of Jesus. I'm beginning to believe it.

Some people go to Protestant churches because someone took the time to stop by. Does it annoy a lot of people? Sure, but I pass hundreds of Baptist churches before I reach the little EC parishes I've been visiting. Perhaps it's because we've forgotten what evangelism really is, what the Apostles did, what Sts. Cyrill and Methodius did for us, and replaced it with something more comfortable.

A couple of guys from a Greek Island put aside any cultural arrogance they may have and go to a wild place, learn the language of the people, and teach the people about Christ in their own context. These are our mentors and models, not a one-time deal.

We have the fullness of the truth and we'll be happy to share it with anyone. Well, anyone who knows about us and will come and ask. We've kept the faith allright. We've kept it right in our pockets.

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Cizinec ]

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Cizinec ]

What all catholics (regardless of rite) and orthodox must do is evangelize by deed and word. We must not focus on bringing a person into a rite, but the focus must be on leading that person to Christ. Let Our Heavenly Father lead the person into whatever rite He so desires.

Addressing an earlier post:

Being raised RC, I must agree there is NOT an emphasis on the Lord's resurrection. I had no idea I could have freedom from the bondage of sin, and a regenerated heart! I had no idea that Christianity was about a relationship with the Creator of the Universe! I had to hear this from Pentecostals in my mid 30's after drinking and drugging my brain for almost 20 years...Praise God that I did. What's the point? BOTH the Passion and Resurrection must be presented to both the saved and the lost. You can't have one without the other.

Remember Jesus' command, our Great Commission, to go make disciples in all nations; He didn't tell us to go make them Catholics, or Orthodox, or Latin or Byzantine rites.

Let us be Christ, show Christ, and proclaim Him Lord of All!!!!!!!!!!!

In His Service,

Walter, a sinner, and an RC very close to coming home to the BCC! Peace.

Thanks, Brother Walter, for your post.

I appears that we are all in general agreement that the Gospel is the primary guideline: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. If we aren't doing this, the rest is just sham religion.

But, as Alex's post has made clear, even if we do this, we have to go beyond it to reach out and not just give "example".

This is the cultural question: how do we effectively reach out to the unchurched without turning them off by our cultural baggage? I think that the real conundrum is to find a way of presenting Byzantine theological/spiritual realities (pathways! my favorite term!) without requiring the individual to abjure his mindset/lifestyle to "come in our door".

The Prots use the basics: food, clothing, support, fellowship, music ministries, etc. to accomplish this.

What tools do we have; what tools MUST we use to reach out to our unchurched compatriots to get their attention without turning them into 'servants of the Czar'? ("Here, have some stew and a new sweater; and memorize this: "Blagosloven jesi, Christe Bozhe nash,...") They feed and clothe them and give them a message that corresponds to American culture. We can feed and clothe them, but give them a message that is hyphenated-American. ["a ikon? wha's that? Hey man, only my dentist gives me a 'crown'.]

We've got our work cut out for us. Maybe, like the RC priests in Ethiopia, we've got to help them make their way to the Western Church. And then, if they're really interested, provide them with info on who we are and what we do.

Blessings!

Dr. John,

I go out door to door and establish a bridge over the friendliness of our conversation. I always go out asking the Holy Spirit to go before me and with me to prepare the hearts of the people He has chosen for me to meet.

I invite them by word and by written invitation to come by the Church anytime but give them a special invitation to our montly open houses which correspond with our Piroghi and Stuffed Cabbage sales. Part of the tour includes my conversion testimony. Some come then to liturgy others do not.

I don't worry about whether they know Slovanic, or whether they should go East or West. I leave such weighty matters up to the Holy Spirit.

Dan Lauffer

Dan and Other Posters,

Dan, I read your posting today after being visited by two Mormon missionaries who wanted to share the good news about Jesus with me. They were courteous and knowledgeable and respectful. We ended by agreeing that our Faiths were different but at least we could pray for each other.

This led me to think about the various discussions about Evangelization going on in various threads in Forums here.

In one of the earlier posts following the resurrection of the Forum from the ashes, there was a statement of what should be preached in evangelization. Serge wrote:

Edwin asked:

Teach all nations what?

That there is a God, the Source and End of all being — "I am who am', that this is the God revealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the prophets, to the Jews in the Old Testament, and that this God is Three Persons, one of Whom, the Son, became a man, Jesus who is called the Christ (messiah, anointed one), who left the Church on earth. In short, that there is a God, and Jesus Christ is God. (Sounds like a Christian version of the Muslims' Allahu akbar!) Of course, along with that go a lot of the ethical and moral teachings many other religions have (variations of the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule).

I wondered why we members of the Apostolic Churches, (Catholic along with Eastern and Oriental Orthodox), cannot begin to work together in bringing Christ to the world outside our institutions, the world in our neighborhood that knows Christ not. Could we not begin a joint evangelization program on a small scale somewhere. If we developed a statement of shared beliefs and provided a brief description and list of the various churces which share these beliefs, perhaps this would enable us to Evangelize as we are commanded.

What a wondrous event that would be. Those to whom we would introduce Christ would see Him in the Love that leads us to pool resources to do as He has commanded us to do.

Do you think we could set aside our parochialism for something like this? Or, are there reasons that we could not try it?

Steve
JOY!

Please do not allow the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

At the risk of receiving anthrax-filled parcels at my home, I have to say something about the evangelization issues.

If one starts with the current status of Christian communities and churches, then we have a lot of ethno-cultural and historical baggage that comes along with us. This is why, in a small city, there are multiple steeples for multiple Christ-follower congregations. (I was in Covington, Kentucky, yesterday and marvelled at all the church buldings in the old section of town. Of course the German Catholics had the biggest edifice and the highest towers and domes. "Mother of God" parish = Mutter Gottes Kirche.) But what struck me was that all these church buildings represented communities that had variant worship styles, histories (and languages) that were tied to historical events.

But.... if I started at the other end (as it were) and began with the Gospel, then it seems to me that we are all Gospelites and that we just have variant forms for the ways that we live, worship and interact with each other. And this should not be a barrier to our cooperating and co-sacrificing for the love of God and love of our neighbors.

In my wildest dreams, I envision an America where ALL the baptized folks acted like baptized folks, forgot the labels and just prayed and did their utmost to bolster an America that lived Christian principles. Let folks go to one or another edifice to pray and establish a community, but let all the Gospelites come together in service.

I know it's just a dream; the "powers that be" in the different groups would mess their Depends, and the financial implications would be revolutionary. But deep down in my heart, I really think that most baptized Christians would be more than comfortable working shoulder to shoulder with other Christians of whatever persuasion.

Should there be variations in worship styles? Sure. We Easterns are less than homogenized, and we should not fear allowing folks to liturgize in ways that suit their needs. (Sometimes, I envy the Quakers with their totally silent prayer/worship session. How peace inducing!!)

So, I would hope that as Byzantine Christians, we would never "sheep steal" from another Christian community, that we would cooperate with anyone else who calls upon Christ as the Savior, and that we would have such wonderful communities that people would be breaking down the doors to come in. And if they WEREN'T interested in us, that we could guide them to a Gospelite community where they could work out their salvation.

I can hear the anti-ecumenists clasping their chests and rending their garments now. But if we are indeed obligated to help an INDIVIDUAL find a way to live the Gospel and be a baptized Christian, then can't we work with that individual to find that place? Would Christ be ticked off that we didn't bring that individual to "our" Church, even if it didn't work towards his ability to love God and love our neighbors? Isn't our obligation to help our neighbors save their souls, even if it's elsewhere?

We Eastern folks have a precious gift; but, it's not for everyone. But in HELPING the individual who is searching, we have fulfilled the mandate of the Gospel.

Blessings!

Elton Trueblood, the great Quaker theologian, believed that we have different churches (denominations) because people have different personalities!

Well...duh...you could have fooled me!

He is right! And those well-intentioned, but very mistaken, folks who believe we should all march to the same beat and wear the same parochial school uniforms (no matter how neatly pressed and packaged we might look!) do not understand human nature and certainly are ignorant of the history of Christianity, i.e., there have always been free-thinkers and dissenters, both inside and outside the Apostolic churches,and there always shall be. Some people just cannot be forced into someone else's obsession of what is or is not a "good" Christian. ( Tolstoy and lion-hearted Nikos Kazantzakis, come to mind.) Lest some forget, Jesus came to set and make us free. And that is the "other side" of the Byzantine way that the control freaks cannot tolerate.

Your Gospelite idea is just too cool for far too many. How sad.

Thanks,

Bill

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Post deleted by Psalm 46.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dr John,

Just think ...

If there was no schism.

If all Eastern Christians were in union.

If we pulled and/or shared all our available resources and talents.

If the mega-Eastern Church directory listed ALL the Churches I could worship at.

If the first thing that outsiders and newcomers thought about us was that we were Christian and not just Orthodox this and Catholic that.

Just think about the real bonanza food fests we can really have!

Dr. John and Edwin,

Amen!

Just think pierogi, stuffed grape leaves, hot cabbage (Korean), spaghetti, hot dogs, chicken with garlic sauce, suchi, and apple pie at one great fund raiser repeated often!

Sounds like a divine idea to me!

Imagine that Christians working together and praying for eachother and evangelizing with each other.

Sounds like a Divine idea to me!

JOY!

Dr. John,

A wonderful statement. I will just pick at one comment. You say "We Eastern folks have a precious gift; but, it's not for everyone"

I would say the 'gift' is Christian faith, which is for everyone. It is just the wrappings the gift comes in that is not for everyone.

K.