www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Why do people change rites?

I found an interesting article about the current "phenomenon" of Roman rites christians, switching to the Eastern Rite.

http://www.reginadoman.com/articles/riteswitch.html

It is good to see that the Latin Bishops in the USA are more willing to accept the change of rite (this has not happenned in many countries), and that the idea of the "superiority" of the Roman Rite is part of history (however, the reasons, are not a change of mind, but the troubles in the Western Church).

What kind of experiences are common in your parishes?
What kind of conversions are more frequent in your parishes, Orthodox becoming Byzcath or Latin people becoming ByzCath?

People change their ecclesial affiliation (not their "rite") for one of three reasons:

1. They are not happy where they are (most frequently Roman Catholic traditionalists unhappy about the "new" Mass, or Byzantine Catholics unhappy about their "old" one).

2. They are marrying a person of the other Church (easily the most common reason).

3. They sincerely believe that the liturgical, theological, and spiritual patrimony of the Church they are joining better expresses their understanding of truth and better meets their spiritual needs (msot commonly found among people leaving one communion for another).

Very few Orthodox join the Byzantine Catholic Churches, except by marriage. A lot of them camp out in our parishes, if there is no parish of their own nearby--particularly if what they seek is an ethnic parish, or one with a specific liturgical useage. A lot more Byzantines become Orthodox, either because they feel cramped in the compromises of our "uniate" life, or because they have some fundamental disagreements with Latin doctrine or ecclesiology (which they feel are also normative for Eastern Catholics). And again, a lot of Byzantine Catholics are camping out in Orthodox parishes, because there are no parishes of their own Church nearby. But even more Byzantines simply give up the struggle and become Roman Catholics, because they've bought into the idea that "Catholic is Catholic", and because Roman Catholic is "Real Catholic", and because it's just so much easier to be Roman Catholic in this country: there are parishes everywhere; five Masses on Sunday, no waiting (and usually one on Saturday evening, so you don't have to miss soccer practice, or can get off early to the beach, or can just sleep in); none of that onerous fasting stuff; nice, short services, with different styles to meet all tastes; cheap tuition for parish schools (a big inducement), and a huge institution to cater to their needs. Of course, the parishes are sometimes huge and impersonal, but a lot of people seem to like the anonymity after the intimacy (nosiness) of smaller Byzantine parishes.

Stuart,

Your words reflect a man who has been in the thicket of church community.

to Stuart K:

"Cheap tuition"? What planet are you living on?
My friends are paying 5x the tuition for their kids in Catholic grammar school that I paid for college. ($5,000).

Mike,

he probably meant to say "they (BC's) qualify for the parish discount by joing the RC parish".

Hey, you all!

Yes, it is less expensive to join a Latin parish to get the school "discount" but be careful: the discount is actually because one donates his/her actual Sunday offerings to the parish. Outsiders, like me, send our children to a parochial school and pay more than double because they don't receive money from us elsewhere, hence the double rate. I am also unaware of any local parochial schools that our eparchy cooperates with like Latin parishes do who have no school of their own.

At our son's current school, there used to be a three tier rate: (1) active parishioners, (2) active non-parishioners, and (3) non-active parishioners, other Christians, and non-Christians. Today, it has been compressed into a two tier system and we pay the non-parishioner/non-practicing Catholic/non-religious rate. At to this the fact that we are also paying for a public school system with our tax dollars that absolutely stinks.

Brother Remie- I can only speak from my own journey to Byzantine Catholicism from Latin Catholicism. For myself, a lifelong active Latin Catholic, the journey was gradual and took many years, actually as many as 15. A gentle tugging and hunger to learn more reached a peak last year when, with the help of the internet, I was able to fully explore the treasures of the east. Around the fall of last year, I went to my first Liturgy and right now I am awaiting final confirmation of my changing of churches. So my own travels, perhaps unique in my parish from what I can see, were not spur of the moment or in reaction to any one event. Rather, they were the apex of a long road, leading to something I had always hungered for. Pray for me as I do all of you,

A sinner
Michael

I've seen that many dissafflected Roman Catholics who start attending Byzantine Catholic parishes finally end up in the Orthodox Church because of the resons you posted.

Is it that people from that background see the byzantine catholic parishes as a "preparation" for Orthodoxy?

After all, they have an environment that could work very well, they can take communion and get acostumed to the liturgical piety of the East.
Specially in the USA, a country which is very diverse in religion and has a lot of "options" (within the Apostolic Church).

In many cases, members of the Roman Rite who attend byzantine parishes face the same difficulties than those who attend the indult Latin Mass, or the FSSP Latin Mass.
I have friends in my native country who have attended the melkite or the maronite parish, and are very happy because they find a liturgy and a cathechesis which is consistent with the traditional faith, and in addition to that, they're in communion with the Pope.

The problem appears when they want to baptize their children, or to get married: "sorry you can't do this here", and they're sent back to the modernist and liberal bishop and their "official" parish. They get dissapointed because they realize that the structure does not protect them from those who previously attacked them, and after some months, they join the Orthodox Church. Somehow, Orthodoxy provides them a protection they couldn't find before.

Remie,

Why didn't your friends change Rites before these situations arose?

Nicky's Baba

Is there anyone here who canonically changed churches from a Byzantine Catholic sui iuris Church to the Latin Church?

I'd be thoroughly fascinated to hear about their "conversion" experiences.

I think the issue of Catholic "transritualism" is a distinct action from those who convert to Orhodoxy. Moving from one part of the Catholic Church to antother is not the same as coming into a new communion.

Axios

Brother Nicky's Baba:

I supose that they didn't know about that of changing rites, it was until they wanted to baptize or marry in that Church. Unfortunately, people aren't as informed as in the USA about these issues (including the priests ), because the information is not avaible in many cases. "Paperwork works slowly and sometimes it doesn't work". I haven't asked if some of them ever tried the paperwork (changing rites), I supose that the negative answer was enough to get them dissapointed.

As Axios said, being Orthodox is a different thing, one of the persons I know from the Melkite Church who returned to Orthodoxy said something like this: "in the Catholic Church people cxan believe many different things, people can still be catholics without believing what the Catholic Church teaches, this doesn't happen in the Orthodox Church."
I don't mean that they didn't have to do paperwork when they became Orthodox (they went to the Antiochian parish, so I don't think they had to be re-chrismated, they were just received). I'll try to get information.

Dear Friends,

I think that Mar Stuart's comments reflect the American experience completely and not at all the Canadian or other.

Membership in a church, for someone like me at least, is more than assent to doctrine or feeling comfortable with a system of ritual and liturgy or even the all-important issue of tuition .

It is a "total" commitment involving religion, culture, nationality, family, friends etc.

My "I" has very little to do with it, or at least my "I" would be greatly affected within the broad system of social relationships in which my religious commitment has its locus.

In this type of situation, I am more likely to change churches only when and if my immediate community would first.

In a sense, it is a form of "cuius regio, eius religio" as held sway in the Reformation, but with the difference that the auctoritas and dignitas of the "regio" is dispersed through a number of people in the social hierarchy I am implanted in.

Even our Latin brothers who come to join us up here, as in the case of my priestly friend in St Catharines, establish a relationship to the Ukrainian community, e.g. by learning the liturgy in Ukrainian and other things related to culture and less to religion per se.

The Orthodox who come to my in-laws' parish do so inconspicuously - they don't, being recent immigrants from a situation of militant atheistic rule, see a great difference between the Churches, and certainly nothing that would prevent them from attending the nearest Ukrainian Catholic Church each Sunday.

What is more important to them is that they are "among their own" who speaka da language, eatta da food and celebrate da holidays.

And just when we all thought our Canadian cultural diversity system was going to break down, in come these new immigrants and infuse new life into our communities!

Oh well, give it a few more years yet . . .

For us, "Byzantine Catholics" are those of us who do well in extremely political situations at the church committee meetings . . .

Alex

Remie,
Who said you could be Catholic and believe anything you want? I think the beauty of the Catholic Church is that there are so many theological approaches to everything. It can at times cause friction, but overall I think it is very helpful and essential for Christ's Body. This is something that I think the Orthodox Churches lack a great deal; there simply aren't as many theoligical approaches in Orthodoxy as there are in Catholicism.

ChristTeen287

Dear ChristTeen,

Well, I think that you may have gone too far here . . .

It is simply just that not every Orthodox jurisdiction appreciates a more liberal perspective than others.

The OCA has sometimes been criticized for perceived liberalism on the part of some of its theologians.

However, there is nothing to suggest the sort.

Intellectuals will always be persecuted and the OCA has produced an excellent group of intellectuals and theologians within the Orthodox tradition, and it has always fostered a responsible and traditional stream of intellectualism in its schools.

Alex