www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Trying to get a handle on Eastern spirituality

Hi, all,

I'm an RC who is trying to learn as much about BC and all that it has to offer. The other day I bought a biography on a Russian Orthodox Elder (Netkary). I realize he is not Catholic per se, but, may I presume that the attitudes, devotions, etc. are pretty well representative of Eastern Christianity? (I am getting the impression as I am trying to learn that essentially the only difference between Catholic and Orthodox is whether or not to follow the Pope. I know there's the whole "Filioque" issue, but that stems more from the leadership thing, doesn't it? Someone let me know if I'm wrong:-)

Jodi

Jodi, Glory to Jesus Christ ! Welcome to the Byzantine Catholic Churches, Jodi. I would think that readings from that Optina Elders series would be difficult for a beginner. I will give you a few suggestions. I, also, have had to make, and I am still making the transition from Roman Catholicism to Byzantine Catholicism. Many others in this Forum have done the same. Unlike Roman Catholicism of the recent centuries, Byzantine private prayer follows the same patterns used in liturgical worship (corporate prayer in church). In church we pray facing Our Lord, Jesus Christ and his mother the most holy Theotokos. We are surrounded by and join in the prayers of the angels and the saints. I refer, of course, to the ikons in your church. We burn candles or oil lamps before Our Saviour, his mother, and the saints. The texts we use are those consecrated by centuries long use by the Church and by the Fathers. During the Divine Liturgy we stand and face the East. We do not kneel on Sundays. We frequently make the sign of the cross: when the Holy Trinity is invoked; at moments of great intesity or importance. We sometimes accompany our sign of the cross with bow(metany or poklony) or even a full prostration. I suggest you set up an ikon corner in your home. Try to pray there using some or all of the Morning and Evening prayers each day. Eventually, you will memorize the begining and closing prayers, as they are used at the start and close of any service. I also suggest that you obtain an Orthodox Manual of Prayer or the Byzantine Book of Prayer. You can probably obtain these books and items needed for an icon corner from your parish gift shop. You will also want to obtain regular spiritual direction from a spiritual father. Traditionally, spiritual fathers have been monks. In America we do not have enough monks to provide spiritual direction for all of the Eastern Catholics. Someone in your parish, your parish priest or deacon, will probably suffice in the beginning. I will suggest the following reading materials: Nicholas Zernov, The Church of the Eastern Christians; Frederica Mathewes-Green, Facing East; Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church; Athanasius Pekar, You Shall Be Witnesses unto Me; and Walter Ciszek, He Leadeth Me. I hope that some of this is helpful.

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Jodi

You want to start out with a book called THE DOMESTIC CHURCH. It's a good book that gives a general over all view of Eastern Christians, their beliefs and some of the customs.

There are many branches of the Eastern Church and not all follow the same traditions.

I am a Ruthenian Byzantine Rite Catholic, born and bred. We use Old Church Slavonic as our Liturgical language on special Holy Days. We kneel during Divine Liturgy during the Consecration, except from Easter until Pentecost, when we stand to show our joy in the Resurrection.

We do fast on Fridays, although this is voluntary, except during Fasting periods. We do not fast on Sundays, as do some of the Eastern Rite Christians do who are from the Middle Eastern countries.

There are many different customs and traditions and it will be confusing for you. Try to read about the spiritual side and tackle the traditions later.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me and I will try to answer as best I can.

The least servant of the servants of God
Mark


[This message has been edited by Medved (edited 08-19-1999).]

>>>I am a Ruthenian Byzantine Rite Catholic, born and bred. We use Old

Church Slavonic as our Liturgical language on special Holy Days. We

kneel during Divine Liturgy during the Consecration, except from Easter

until Pentecost, when we stand to show our joy in the Resurrection.



<<<



You must belong to an older parish, for the revised rubrics of the Liturgy are fully consistent with Orthodox practice; i.e., all prayer is to be deliered standing, for in accordance with Canon 10 of the Council of Nicaea, on Sundays we srand in the presence of the Risen Lord, because every Sunday is a celebration of the Resurrection.. Kneeling is for penitential prayer, as, e.g., when we kneel at Pentecost, or prostrate during Lent.

Jodi,

I would recommend "The Orthodox Way" by Kallistos Ware -- it focuses on the spiritual aspects of Eastern Christianity, and not on the often polemically-charged issues that distinguish "catholic" from "orthodox".

For a good understanding of Eastern Catholic History, there is a book called "To the Ends of the Earth: Aspects of Eastern Catholic Church History" published by the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia. It explains how we got to where we are today.

Orientale

Jodi et al-
I would concur with beginning with something like Ware's "The Orthodox Church". The Optina Elders are wonderful saints of 19th Cent. Russia but are oftimes misunderstood by many (as is the whole idea of eldership within Orthodox spirituality). I have a great love and devotion for St. Nectary, who was one of the last elders and who experienced the closing of Optina Monastery by the Bolsheviks. Much of his writing (I have the book you have) are both apocalyptic and "foolish" (as in "fools for Christ") - and although these are some of the gifts which this saint brings for us, we may not be ready or at the point where they will teach us what we need to know.
I am however a believer :-) that the books we come across and read are "meant" for us and can be instruments for our salvation. I hope that you take the advice of others to build a "foundation" of understanding the Orthodox Church (or Byzantine Church if that is your quest).
One of my favorite quotes of the Elder Nectary is "I have lit the lamp, now tend to the wick yourselves" - if you begin to light a lamp, as is customary in Eastern prayer, you will understand some of what this means!

In Christ,
John

If we can back to the sidebar about kneeling vs. standing...

The Orthodox don't appear to have a consistent practice, either. I attend a Greek Orthodox parish where we kneel for the epiklesis, except for Pascha through Pentecost. However, we always stood at the Antiochian cathedral I attended previously. Go figure...

Peter

Thank you all for your replies...getting my hands on these books will be the next challenge;-)

Jodi

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Jodi

The book I mentioned, THE DOMESTIC CHURCH, can be obtained from the IKON AND BOOK SERVICE in Washington, DC. They do have a website: www.iconbook.org/ [iconbook.org]

Or you can phone 1-800-ASK-IKON. They can give you more info and send you a catalog. You may also want to look at BYZANTINE BOOK OF PRAYER, which is published by the Byzantine Seminary Press. It is a good book for everyday prayer.

The least servant of the servants of God...
Mark

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Stuart:

I am a Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic in union with the Holy See in Rome. I belong to a parish that paractices the customs and traditions brought to this country from our Mother church in what is today Slovakia and Ukraine. It has always been and still is the custom in our churches to kneel on Sundays and during other prayer times, unless during the Paska Season.

I do not know what the other Eastern ChristiansRites do in terms of kneeling. I know I have been to the Cathedral of St. Nicholas in Washington, DC., seat of His Beautitude Metropolitan Theodosius, and they kneel on the floor.

I have also not seen any change in the Rubrics of my diocese or from the Archbishop either.

The least servant of the servant of God
Mark

>>>I am a Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic in union with the Holy See in

Rome. I belong to a parish that paractices the customs and traditions

brought to this country from our Mother church in what is today Slovakia

and Ukraine. <<<



I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh, a sui juris Church in communion with Rome, and I attend a parish in the Washington, DC, area. No one denies that the custom of kneeling has insinuated itself into the worship of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nonetheless, this is not an integral part of our liturgical Tradition, but rather a latinization, an imitation of Roman practices that we picked up over the centuries in an attempt to "be real Catholics". The Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Oriental Churches recognized that is is proper for the Eastern Catholic Churches to recover the fullness of their liturgical, spiritual, and doctrinal patrimony, and the :iutrugical Instruction of 1996 amplifies that theme. If you attended the eparchial pilgrimage to the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception last year, you would have seen in the service book, at the beginning of the anaphora, the rubric "And the People remain standing". It is customary in Orthodox worship to stand, as the default posture, for we consider the Divine Liturgy to be a joyful occasion, a Holy Banquet, the Bridal Feast to which we are all invited. Kneeling is a penitential act, reserved for penitential occasions, such as during Lent, and during the kneeling prayers at Pentecost Vespers. The proper reverence for Byzantine Christians is not the genuflection, but the metania, and thus at the consecration, we bow, but do not kneel. That many of the older parishes continue to kneel I attribute to inertia: this is the way people were brought up, and this is what they do.



Since I live in the Washington area, and have been to St. Nicholas Cathedral, I must ask which particular Divine Liturgy you attended, since in the Russia Church (and I have been ro Russian Orthodox Churches in Europe as well as the US, nobody kneels at all durng ordinary Sunday worship, except for the Deacon, when he assists the priest at the proskomide during the Great Entrance.

>> "It is customary in Orthodox worship to stand, as the default
posture, for we consider the Divine Liturgy to be a joyful occasion, a Holy Banquet, the
Bridal Feast to which we are all invited." >>

Which begs the question: why even have pews, which are an issue in the Orthodox churches.
The Byzantine Rite Church I used to attend followed the Russian custom of 'No pews', as does of course the Russian Orthodox Church. It seems more a matter of "American Protestantism" rather than "Latinism" to have these things in our churches?

In Christ,
John

In reference to kneeling, is kneeling not also a posture of adoration?

Glory to Jesus Christ ! The kneeling question is a good one. In the Orthodox world kneeling is usually restricted on Sundays to the following: veneration of Christ's Burial Shroud on Holy Saturday Vespers and Divine Liturgy and Pascha Matins and veneration of icons or relics of the Cross on Sept 14, 3rd Sunday of Lent and August 1st. In the Ukrainian and Ruthenian (Slovak, Hungarian, and Croatian) traditons the bridal couple may kneel for the Mystery of Crowning even if celebrated on a Sunday. People may kneel during weekday Divine Liturgy outside of the period between Pascha and Pentecost. Individuals often kneel during the anaphora and during the Our Father. Nearly everyone kneels at the Liturgy of the Presanctified during Lent. These are the general rules of the Orthodox world. Practice often varies. I have atteded Greek Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox, and Ruthenian Divine Liturgies where the congregation knelt for the "transubstantiation" and or the epiclesis. Very few Byzantine churches Catholic and Orthodox in Southern are without pews with kneelers. I am very blessed to attend a Catholic Church where traditional Eastern traditions flourish.

Stuart said:

>I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh, a sui juris Church in communion with Rome, and I attend a parish in the Washington, DC, area. No one denies that the custom of kneeling has insinuated itself into the worship of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nonetheless, this is not an integral part of our liturgical Tradition, but rather a latinization, an imitation of Roman practices that we picked up over the centuries in an attempt to "be real Catholics". The Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Oriental Churches recognized that is is proper for the Eastern Catholic Churches to recover the fullness of their liturgical, spiritual, and doctrinal patrimony, and the liturgical Instruction of 1996 amplifies that theme.

-- Stuart, were you a member of the Ruthenian Church in 1596, or 1646? If not, how do you know that "the custom of kneeling has insinuated itself into the worship of the Byzantine Catholic Church" (which one? Ruthenian, I presume)?

Isn't it possible that it is an authentic custom of the Ruthenian Church (in or out of union with Rome) to kneel at various services, including the Divine Liturgy on weekdays outside the Paschal season?

Sure, it doesn't make much sense to kneel on Sundays or during Paschaltide (the [old] Canons forbid it), but where is it declared that kneeling at the Liturgy and other services on weekdays is inappropriate or wrong? The documents you allude to don't mention kneeling.

And from what I've seen, your parish's particular "interpretation" (or discarding) of said custom doesn't stop people from kneeling AFTER they receive Communion, which strikes me as the _last_ time one ought to be kneeling.