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I have spoken to a Byzantine Priest who told me that the BCC in the USA is declining in a major way. Please keep in mind that this is not my opinion but the priest.

At the current rate of decline the BCC will have to make some tough decisions. Many on this forum has critized the BCC from becoming "Latinized". However, some are of the opinion that the "Traditional" ways are not working. For example, (please forgive me of my ignorance) the Byzantine equivalent to the Rosary never really took off. It is clear the the Rosary is now a big Internationally known and used prayer so is it so wrong to bring the Rosary into the BCC or some of the other "Latinized" traditions (i.e. Holy Water fonts)? I know many are against "Sheep Stealing". But, if there are RCC who are not happy with there Latin Home and find BCC as home is it wrong to court them? What if it is a matter of survival as this priest has commented?

Please don't flame me! I am just asking a question not expressing any personal views. For me personally I like EVERYTHING Eastern. But there are bigger issues her like keeping the BCC alive and growing. So what is more important the BCC Traditions or Growth?

Do we even have to make that choice between keeping Tradition and Growth? Do you see Tradition as hendering Growth? Rather, do you see Tradition as the only thing has kept the BCC alive this long.

We have talked about Evangelization in the Past and I believe one member of this forum even came up with a wonderful Guide for BCC Evangelization. In the opinion of the Forum do you agree with the priest comments? Is the BCC in the USA on the decline? Why or Why Not?

If you agree it is declining then Why is it Declining? If you disagree then Why do you think it is Growing. Basically, what do you think?

God Bless!

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

This is where I really stopped reading because there are not really many Byzantine Catholic parishes that are truly/totally Eastern in Tradition. Many, if not most, are latinized in one way or another.

So how can this priest claim that the "Traditional" ways are not working when they haven't really been tried, and where they are doing it how long has it been done?

The few places that I know of that have shed all/most latinizations are booming. Look at St Elias out side of Toronto. I don't think they are having a problem with not enough "butts in the pews".... Sorry for my language and I know they don't have pews.

The Melkite parish I attend, while small is not hurting in any way.

I think we must fully restore our Traditions before we look at the Traditions of others that we may wish to copy.

Your brother in Christ,
David

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

DavidB,

Thanks for not flaming Me! I knewn this would be a heated discussion. But, I think it is an important discussion.

Our parish keeps the full eastern ethos and is growing. But we're in the South, where many people are moving. I think demagraphics has a lot to do with it. Ultimately, it also doesn't matter to me AS MUCH if a parish only has 50 dedicated people versus some of our larger 300 people (we're talking regular crowd, not on the books) parishes, as long as the bills get paid. That's becuase what we want in quality, not quantity. I want to see more of our churches open in cities where they don't exist, rather than focus more on beefing up existing parishes (please note that I am not saying I am against getting more folks, just I'm talking priorities.)

What are some of the problems? Lots of older priests probably wouldn't want to move south to open missions up. And we don't exactly have a lot of seminarians getting ordained right now. So let's focus on ordaining older men in the community to the priesthood to open missions or give support to priests in the parish. I want to see both deacons and priests comming from older, mature men--we need both. Fr gets sick one weekend? No sweat--Fr. Bill can serve liturgy. Fr. needs help with church finances? Fr. Deacon Mike will help out with that. Some might say, "how are we going to find these folks?" I'd say: ASK!! I bet a lot of the older guys just think they're too old or not "smart" enough or don't have ___________ (fill in the blank). A loving parish priest could encourage, I believe, his parishoners to be emboldened.

just my $.34.

anastasios

Dear +Ray,

Judging by the way you attract posters to your threads, perhaps YOU should be put in charge of parish development . . .

My daddy-in-law attracts people through his after-Liturgy coffee shop.

People come in off the streets for fellowship and they wind up joining the parish, initially for the fellowship.

I think our parish is a place where we should feel at home and comfortable in the company of others.

It should be like a great big Byzantine Forum!

Alex

Um...

well...

yuk...

Its bad enough we've got those gosh-durned pews in our church. I don't like 'em. :-(

But if our parish is in decline, no one told the priests or the people. You've got to get there eeeearly for Liturgy or you'll be standing in the vestibule or hanging in the downstairs hall hoping to catch a word. And there as many people my age, some of them with little kids, as there are babas and dedes.

Honestly, I think attempted Latinization of Eastern churches in union w/ Rome has worked out badly, esp. in the United States. Its counter productive. I have a lot of Orthodox family members, but they were mostly the children or grandchildren of Catholics in the old country.

I honestly don't think that a lot more people would join Byzantine churches, if they started adopting more Western devotions or ways. It might drive more folks away than it attracts. Why destroy traditions? Traditions are part of what define community.

Our (speaking here of the Pittsburgh Metropolia) huge membership losses came, in my assessment:

1) In the 1930s, the "time of troubles"; a period of harsh latinization followed so as to more sharply distinguish our churches from the Orthodox; the Pittsburgh Eparchy lost probably 30-40% of its faithful;

2) In the 1970s, which followed the severe Latinization/Americanization of the 1960s. And the intense secularization of post-Vietnam American society. Not many new Latin practices were introduced (except for the new bare-minimum Lenten/Friday fasting rules, which one would think would stave off the outflow). The lost generation here were the grandchildren of the original immigrants, who were marrying either RCs or non-Catholics/Orthodox and ended up in any church but their own Byzantine one.

This left us with, in my estimation, 25% of what our potential membership would have been at that point. And because of the confusion then over who we were -- ethnically, ritually, spiritually -- combined with the challenges of educating the people in English (there were no Byzantine materials until God With Us series debuted in the mid(?)-'70s), the people we still had were one seriously confused bunch. And by and large, they were unable to pass the "Byzantine faith" (which ostensibly few of them truly possessed to begin with) to their children. Even our youth of the late 70s/80s who were taught from God With Us did not typically practice that sort of "Byzantine faith" at home or anywhere else.
That's why I notice I'm usually the only person of my age (early 30s) at a Presanctified Liturgy (I was last night, for sure), and one of just a handful in a typical parish at all.

RichC,

I can relate 100%. At my Church 90% of the members are over the age of 65. At last nights Presanctified Liturgy I was the only young person. The other BCC that I attended was about the same situation.

God Bless!

Dear +Ray,

Maybe it has a lot to do with the excellent weather you have in Florida!

We don't have those problems up here . . .

Alex

you actually have "old" people that come to Presanctified Liturgies?! Count your blessings! ;-)

anastasios

Does this problem also afflicts the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Amando,
I do not believe that this is the case in most Orthodox Dioceses and regions in the United States. I will give you the example of my home state of Texas. In 1980's the Orthdox Parishes and missions that existed here were:
Austin 2 (AOC, GOAA)
Beaumont (1 AOC)
Blanco 1 (ROCOR)
Dallas: 3 (OCA, GOAA, and AOC)
El Paso: 2 (AOC, GOAC)
Fort Worth: 2 (GOAA, OCA)
Galveston: 2 (GOAA, SOC)
Houston: 4 (AOC, GOAA, ROCOR and UOC)
Port Arthur:1 GOAA)
San Antonio: 1 (GOAA)
San Angelo: 1 (GOAA)
Waco: 1 (GOAA)

Since then the growth of the Orthodox Church in Texas has been dramatic:


Compare this to Texas at present:
Austin 5 (2-AOC, GOAA, ROCOR, Milan Synod)
Beaumont (1 AOC)
Blanco 1 (KPOC)
Cleaveland: 2 (TOCOG, ROCOR)
Dallas: 4 (OCA, GOAA, ROCOR,and AOC)
El Paso: 2 (AOC, GOAC)
Fort Worth: 3 (AOC-WR, GOAA, OCA)
Fort Hood: 1 (OCA)
Houston: 6 (2-AOC, 1-AOC-WR, GOAA, ROCOR and UOC)
Kendalia: 1 (GOAA)
Mercury: 1 (ROCOR)
Mesquite: 1 (AOC-WR)
Port Arthur: 1 (GOAA)
San Antonio: 3 (GOAA, OCA, AOC)
San Angelo: 2 (2-GOAA)
Spring: 2 (ROCOR, AOC)
Texarkana: 1 (ROCOR)
Lubbock: 1 (GOAA)
WACO: 1 (GOAA)
Witchita Falls: 1 (AOC-WR)

We have three monasteries and 1 convent in Texas.
so as you can see the Orthodox Church is growing in areas that it has not been and is quite evangelical.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Some info on our Church, including statistics:

Pittsburgh:
http://www.rc.net/org/ccita/diocese/dpiru.html

Passaic:
http://www.rc.net/org/ccita/diocese/dpsru.html

Parma:
http://www.rc.net/org/ccita/diocese/dparu.html

Van Nuys:
http://www.rc.net/org/ccita/diocese/dvnru.html


For the Metropolia:

Population?
1949 = 299,305
2000 = 125,057
% decline in population in half a century? 58%

Priests?
1949 = 165
2000 = 220
% increase in number of priests? 33%

Parishes?
1949 = 156
2000 = 238
% increase in number of parishes? 52%

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

I don't think the answer is to discard or relax your traditional religious observances. Instead, I believe any decline is due to the crisis of faith in our contemporary society. Therefore to modify to please and attract the masses, would be to jeopordize the very thing true seekers are longing for.

As a monk I am very familiar with this. Our monastic community is somewhat traditional, and yes, is rapidly aging. I'm 40 and currently only 3 other monks are younger than me! Many days, it is a test of my faith & commitment to comtemplate the future of my community. But to change our monastic observance? That is not an option, for it would make us into something we are not. No offense, but IMO this was the fatal error many women's religious communities made after the 2nd Vatican council.

So be true to your Eastern Byzantine identity!

Oh, and please PRAY for monastic vocations for both Eastern & Western monastics. Our nation really needs them.

PAX

Benedictine

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Benedictine ]

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Benedictine ]

The Byzantine Catholic Church in the United States is indeed rapidly losing people. While the newer parishes in the "diaspora" of the south and west are growing somewhat, the parishes in the "native homelands" of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio and etc., are rapidly aging and losing people. The reasons for this loss are twofold: 1) economic, 2) education and 3) lack of evangelization.

The economic reasons are easy to understand. Jobs have moved away from these primarily blue-collar states to the south and west and the people have moved with them. In some places new parishes have been created, in others the people who have moved away simply join the local Roman Catholic or, occasionally, the Orthodox parish.

The educational reasons are more complex. After the splits of the 1890's and 1920's and 1930's the Byzantine Catholic Church stressed its "Catholic" identity at the expense of its "Byzantine" identity. When Byzantine Catholics moved away from the neighborhood of their local Byzantine Catholic parish most chose to simply join the local Catholic Church, which more often than not was the Roman Catholic parish in the neighborhood. This is understandable since they were trained that the "Catholic" identity was more important and no one should fault them. There is probably no way these people will ever come back.

The lack of evangelization is the most embarrassing one. We simply have not learned to reach out and witness the Gospel and the Byzantine Christian lifestyle to America. We can blame the fact that we were trained by the Roman Catholics to see ourselves as either "second-class Catholics" or as "ethnic Catholics". Such a mentality can be used as an excuse not to evangelize the unchurched in America but we cannot continue to use it as an excuse and must learn that mission parishes are not just for migrating Byzantine Catholics but places to witness Jesus Christ to everyone.

The rest of Orthodoxy has not done well, either. The Antiochian Orthodox has done the best with its evangelical arm (despite the issues they have faced and continue to face). The OCA is in a very similar situation to the BCC (and primarily for reasons 1 and 3 above). The Greek Archdiocese is, to be honest, still more concerned with maintaining its Greek ethnicity than it is with evangelization.

All of our Churches will loose a large number of people in the next decade and will be faced with closing parishes in the mid-Atlantic and mid-west. If we are true to our Byzantine Christian heritage and begin planting seeds now, including those of real monasticism, we can begin to bring the unchurched to Jesus Christ and the Church as we have been commanded to do.