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Moose,

The statistics I posted actually don't tell the real extent of the population crisis.

In 1949, there were higher percentage of cradle Greek Catholics. Today, after a half century of inter-canonical marriages with Latin Catholics and receiving former Latin Catholics (via parish registration and formal transfer of rites), the 125,057 (2000 Census) population does not speak the same as the 299,305 (1949 Census).

In "real" growth, the actual number of cradle Byzantine Catholics who actually stayed to make up that current statistic is a lot less. This does not mean we should interpret the reception of Latin Catholics as something negative; it only means that growth cannot sustain itself from sheep-stealing or relying on other churches to provide us with the numbers. Eventually, we will come face to face with the problem of becoming a welfare church, always dependent. How many 'converts' does our church really welcome? How many new parishioners are transfers?

Can I add three more reasons to your list for that decline?

4) divisions, divisions, and more divisions
- and ending up with multiple Byzantine Catholic Churches in the same town or village. At the time it looked like we can afford and support the various particular churches with their own parishes, their own pastors, and no cooperation. Today, we need to address that in light of a rapidly falling population. Today, we burn up our resources more than SUVs. We try to keep the doors open with Bingo and fundraising. This causes us to be more concerned with financial missions than evangelical ones.

5) Mandatory celibacy
- a church that had learned how to operate with 80% of its clergy being married (both here and in the old country) had to learn to adapt to a celibate clergy. This was a major sociological and ecclesiological change for our church, one that we still haven't gotten over. The acceptance of this heavy yoke forced our church to take a different course, one that was more intent in proving one's Catholicity than one's own traditions. You stated this already, but I must qualify this as the reason of 'distraction' and lack of focus in our mission as Byzantine Catholics. We allowed the sheep to go free. We even cut the fence for them to make a run.

6) the problem of homosexuality and clericalism
- recently, we learned that the issue of homosexuality should never be raised again for discussion, so I will make no comment her. The problem of clericalism has been raised by Fr. David Petras in his latest writings. He concludes with:

"In most times and places, priests have performed a service to humanity admirably, and deserve the highest respect. In those times and places where they have failed, faith has been weakened and anti-clericalism has frequently resulted. This is why clericalism has been considered one of the worst evils in the church."

See the following link for the full article:
http://www.parma.org/spiritual%20word.htm


Joe

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

6) Our church is too "ethnic."

RichC,


Yes and No! If anything I am ethnic French and I did not feel uncomfortable whne I went to the Ruthenian BCC. The "ethnic" part I got was the food which I had NO problem in liking. Now, how would your typical Southern Redneck accept all this BCC stuff I don't know. For me I did not think the Church was too "ethnic".

NAFTA is killing our Church.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Moose:

The
Greek Archdiocese is, to be honest, still more concerned with maintaining its Greek ethnicity than it is with evangelization.

We evangelize from within.

And we are continuing to grow even though immigration from Hellenic countries and communities overseas has decreased dramatically.

Father Schmemann was correct when he noted that even though a Greek or Russian of the diaspora has no living memories of the old country and even if he has forgotten the mother tongue, he still insists that his church be Russian or Greek. Our Archdiocese is the recipient of the positive affects of that mentality.

We also have an advantage that the Byzantine Catholics do not share: Our people can not transfer to or disappear into the Roman Catholic milieu.

I once heard a Byzantine Catholic priest rue the fact that the majority of American Catholics who could legitimately call themselves Byzantines or claim Byzantine descent are now Roman-rite Catholics.

The good father certainly had a legitimate complaint.

ER

Hi everyone,
In my case, I believe the Byzantine Church is the providence of God. Our Lady of the Sign in Coconut Creek FL is a mission church. The people are friendly as is the pastor. I've truly found a spiritual home.

In the homily last Sunday, Father Mike instructed us on the power of prayer. I was not aware for the dwindling congregations. I'll have to add this along with an increase in the BC priesthood to my prayers.

I've learned you can evangelize all you want, but without the Holy Spirit's inspiration people are not going to listen. All we can be are seed planters. I've found this so true when I say to my RC friends that I am now attending a BC. They listen but look at me with a blank stare. Even whenever I've mentioned something about the BC services to my daughter (a RC), there is a deafening silence.

Oh well - that's life, at least I know I'm in the place God wants me to be. Now more than likely you'll think I'm real flakey, but some mornings I wake up hearing the BC cantor singing the Liturgy.

Peace,
Loretta

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe that one of the problem that the Eastern Catholic Churches may be having is the same problem that Eastern Orthodoxy is having within the United States, Canada, and Latin America. At some point, one has to determine if evangelizing only within the Ethnic group is going to allow the Eastern Christian Churches to do anything in the diaspora but eventually get downsized.

Orthodoxy has been struggling with this since Ligoner. It is an anomalie in Eastern Christianity to have multiple jurisdictions in one Nation of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Where this exists, schism grows, outsiders view the non-traditional model as a sign that the Eastern Church is "weak and disorganized", and the Church becomes weak and vulnerable.

The Answer in the United States, Canada and Latin America is for the Byzantine Churches to unite into an American or Canadian or Latin American National Orthodox Church(or in the Eastern Catholic churches into an American or Canadian or Latin American National Eastern Catholic Church). Evangelize the unchurched, the confused , those searching for Truth and "True Worship". If we look where there is growth, it is away from the traditional ethnic neighborhoods, in the mission field. This is as it should be---there are far too many unchurched people in the Americas that the Eastern Christian Witness may well be what they are looking for.

Our ethnic parishes will still continue in their own ethnic enclaves, with the special cultural traditions,as they do now--- but in order to grow, we must seek the lost, the unchurched and introduce them to our special Eastern Christian Witness. This explains the growth of Orthodoxy in Texas and in many areas of the US. The Antiochians for all of the issues,that some of you have referred to in the past, seem to have gotten this part of their mission right and of all the Orthodox Churches it seems to be the most actively growing in numbers!

May we focus on the great call to evangelism and understand that this is how Byzantine Christianity will grow in the Americas.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas.

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Ephraim,

Many Byzantine Catholics do, too, and that is the problem! The Gospel tells us to baptize all nations. We can't do that effectively if we are overly concerned about the ethnicity of our spiritual ancestors. Greeks and Slavs need to find a way to reach out to unchurched Americans while being respectful of the ethnicity of our respective peoples. I find it rather embarrassing that after more than one hundred years in America the few Americans who are aware of the existence of either of our Churches know us primarily for ethnic food!


Sadly this is true. We have taught our people that the Catholic part of their Byzantine Catholic identity was the most important part and they have learned this lesson well. One can well understand the appeal of belonging to the larger Church and being one of the majority rather than one of the minority.

Orthodoxy, unfortunately, is not hugely different in that the majority of Orthodox - Roman Catholic marriages wind up worshipping in Roman Catholic parishes. Too often Greek Orthodoxy is considered to be the "ethnic" Church and the Roman Catholic as the "American" Church. Keep in mind that the "Guidelines for the Reception of Holy Communion" published by the NCCB for Latin Catholics added the phrase: "Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Churches are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches" in 1996 because the Roman Catholic parishes have numerous members of these Churches who approach and partake of the Eucharist. I remember watching part of that particular bishop's conference on television where the bishops debated the best way to be welcoming while (since Catholic theology permits Eucharistic sharing) at the same time urging these peoples to go and worship in their own Churches. Many Orthodox do worship in Roman Catholic Churches. The percentages are much less than Byzantine Catholics who worship in Roman Catholic Churches but they are not negligible.

--

Thomas,

I agree with your comments. The OCA in the industrial states is losing people at pretty much the same rate as the Byzantine Catholic Church is. Before the crash when I posted more often I posted a vision for a Byzantine Catholic patriarch for the Americas centered in Washington or New York and the merging of all the ethnic jurisdictions into a single jurisdiction with regional dioceses. For the first several generations I would make sure that existing parishes received priests who were conscious and respectful of the existing ethnic traditions while evangelical efforts would feature an amalgam of the liturgical musical traditions and, hopefully, someday a new uniquely American liturgical music tradition. The Antiochians have taken the first steps in this direction with their evangelical outreach and all of us Byzantines would do well to follow their example.

Moose

While like most Orthodox parishes, mine has strongly tilted towards older members, mostly "ethnic". However, those of us are are non-ethnic and/or transritual peak among the 30/40 year old crowd. The children of the parish are mostly from ethnic families.

Axios

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Axios,

You are correct in more ways than you might imagine. I too note that in the non-mission oriented parishes that the bulk of the non-ethnic Orthodox do seen to be age 30 to 50. I believe that this is because this is the generation most affected by the modernism that hit the main-line protestant and Roman Catholic Churches in the 60s and seventies, about the same time as the fall out from Vatican II. Modernism left a spiritual hole in the spirit of many people who began to earnestly look for a stronger more ancient spirituality, many of these people found it in the Byzantine Church (Eastern Orthodox Churches).

The hard part is that many of the children of these parents, although raised by devoutly spiritual people who rejoiced in having "found the True Faith", are not tied to that spiritual search and have become themselves "ambivalent" about the Orthodox faith. Frequently this manifests itself as simply not going to any church once thy move out of their parent's home or having their children baptised but not actively attending services. Being non-ethnics, these children frequently cite "never feeling that they fitted into the Youth programs" that often were very ethnically oriented. In other words they felt like outsiders.

In the primarily new convert mission parishes, this did not happen. Likely because those parishes did not have the ethnic flavor to their youth groups. Their youth groups tend to mimic the protestant or catholic youth groups that the parents used as their point of reference in developing the youth groups.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

You will find this information helpful. It will provide you with the historical background of the BCC in America and help you understand why many Byzantine Catholics would reject a return to Latinizations.


www.byzantines.net/epiphany/gcu.htm [byzantines.net]

[ 03-16-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

Once again, I must state that the decline in the Byzantine Catholic Church in America is due to:

a.) A lack of leadership and concern of the current hierachy and clergy.

b.) The ongoing inferiority complex among the 2nd, 3rd, and (if still attending a Byzantine Church by the 4th generation) subsequent generations because of A LACK OF EDUCATION!!!

c.) Because we do not make enough of a distinction that our Particular Church is different from the Roman Catholic Church. Instead,
we let everyone in the Latin Church think of us as only a mere "liturgical Rite" difference instead of realizing our "Orthodox theological" and "spiritual" heritage. It has been drilled into our psyche that the only thing that is important is that we are "Catholic", and don't worry about our Eastern Christian history and theology. After 3 or 4 generations of this type of thinking, the young adult Byzantine Catholics
who enter into the world on their own, usually during their college days (especially the female Byzantine Catholic youth) remember only to "act" as Roman Catholics and to be ashamed of their "Particular, Eastern Church" and end up attending Roman Catholic liturgies to fulfill an obligation and it's easier to do so in the Roman Chuch.

Ung-Certez

Thomas,

Maybe Western-rite Orthodoxy is the future of Orthodoxy in the Americas?

And how "orthodox" is the spirituality of the West?

ER

ER,

ER,

And where is there "orthodoxy" in the American Roman Catholic Church? It doesn't exist, every, RC parish and every RC bishop does what ever they feel like doing. RC's churches are more "protestant" than "orthodox". As a cradle BC, I would gladly take all of the alienated traditional RC's as converts to the BCC and give up those lazy BC's who attend RC churches out of convience and because they will only be in church for 45 minutes at best and won't have to worry about singing because the liturgy is recited. I think there are more "orthodox" services found amoung Lutheran and Episcopal Protestant congregations than in most modern N.O. American Roman Catholic churches.

Ung-Certez