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Open season on American Roman Catholics again it seems. I have lived and traveled all over the midwestern and northeastern parts of the USA and have seen very few abuses of any kinds. Sure I have seen some liturgical styles that I don't really care for, but out and out abuses...almost never. Too many times someone reads about a real abuse here or there and then says that is happening everywhere. How many of these real abuses have you seen with your own eyes? Or which of these so called abuses have been condemned by the local Ordinary or Rome?
Don

Come to New York, and I'll show you parishes where your statement doesn't apply.

Sure there are problems in the RCC in America, no one's denying that. But there are problems in every Church, just like my priest talked about today at the Liturgy. There's no reason to issue broad declarations about how the RCC in America is going downhill or is already damned. There are places and regions where this isn't the case. And there are places and regions in Orthodoxy where this is the case, and where it is not the case. Far better to pray than to judge, or to work to resolve problems rather than point fingers.

If ever in Milwaukee you can go to the Basilica on the south side. It's the big dome church, you can see it off the highway - I-94. Lincoln street if memory doesn't fail me. There there is no long version of the kiss of peace, no holding of hands during the Our Father, no chior up front, and you can only recieve the Eucharist in the body form. The extras are that it actually looks like a Catholic Church - hand painted ceilings by artists, marbilized columns, and confessionals. Built originaly by finance and labor of poor working Polish people, now predominated by old Polish persons and younger Mexican families.

Here we go again. It seems to me that there are those who feel that if it isn't '50s Irish/Polish/German/Italian American CAtholicism, then it's not legitimate.

Strangely enough, if one looks at the much-maligned "Novus Ordo", there is very little difference: prayers at the 'foot of the altar', the 'kiss of peace', the "through Him" being proclaimed and the 18th century "Last Gospel" being omitted. Oh yeah: the "facing the people thing".

It's more a matter of taste than of theological legitimacy. To suggest that it's more is a sign of theological petrification. It has no real significance.

The same can be said of updates in the Byzantine community. There are changes; some are historically based; others are the result of petrification. (To be sure, I believe that our Byzantine Church is much more impacted by changes because our 'forms' represent to us the historical development that sustained us through persecution. The Western Church doesn't have the luxury of persecution to be immutable.)

So, when our Roman brethren make changes; that's OK for them. And may they find what they can in the emendations.

For Byzantines, when changes come, we are more that reluctant to do so because our 'tradition' is the only thing that sustained us when we were being hounded, persecuted and killed by the commies, the Ottomans, and the 'secularists'. BUT, it is our overall tradition to make changes based upon geography, language, culture and necessity. (Those madcap Ruthenians eat raw garlic dipped in honey; the Greeks would DEMAND the garlic be marinated in wine for 6 months and then consumed with bread, olive oil, and a massive salad!!! As the Germans say: "Andere Laender; andere Sitten" [=other lands, other customs]). No big deal. Just "us'ns".

Is it necessary for everybody to attend liturgy every Sunday? Well, yeah, but "andere Laender, andere Sitten".

It would be wonderful (would it?) if we all had the same practices. But we don't And we shouldn't be judgmental about those who do things differently. Perhaps this is more the perspective of the Western "tradition" [=everybody do the same thing], but us Eastern folks, being kinda messy, just don't get our panties in a twist over variation. It's OK.

Sit down, take off your shoes, have a glass of wine, have some bread and cheese, and be "there" for the brethren and sistren.

Blessings!

(Yikes! I just realized, us Greeks eat a ton of feta and kasseri, but what cheese do our Ukie brethren eat? We love our Ukrainian brethren!! I've got the cabbage, the mushrooms, the kielbassa (in whatever spelling!!!), but I don't know about the cheese!!!! Alex (and others!!!) H E L P ! ! ! !

I'm going to partially agree with my Brother Don. I think most of these "abuses" are urban legends. I note it is rare for critics to say you can go to this parish next Sunday and see that abuse.

However, I am going to condon second hand information when it is positive. It seems that quite a number of of Latin parishes have the reputation of having BOTH good, solid, respectful, liturgy AND are considered "progressive" congregations (whatever that means).

In New York, Corpus Christi would head the list, along with St. Paul the Apostle, St. Ignatius Loyola and St. Thomas More, (and St. Michael's fromour side!). In Washington, DC, St. Joseph's on Capitol Hill and St. Matthew's Cathedral. Chicago's Old St. Patrick's also.

K.

Dear Dr. John,
Please let me reply to a few of your arguments.

"Strangely enough, if one looks at the much-maligned "Novus Ordo", there is very little difference: prayers at the 'foot of the altar', the 'kiss of peace', the "through Him" being proclaimed and the 18th century "Last Gospel" being omitted. Oh yeah: the "facing the people thing".

It's more a matter of taste than of theological legitimacy. To suggest that it's more is a sign of theological petrification. It has no real significance."

If someone came up to you and tried to argue that the Divine Liturgy would not be affected if we removed the Litanies, the priest turned to face the people during the Anaphora, and we took down the iconostasis because it made it people feel excluded, would you buy that argument? EVERYTHING in the Mass and Divine Liturgy is theologically significant. The priest's facing the altar signifies that he is leading the people in worshipping God. The prayers at the foot of the altar (psalm 42) emphasize that it is only through God's grace that we are even able to come to worship Him. The change in the "Kiss of Peace" certainly affects the atmosphere in Mass. The Last Gospel is a wonderful reminder that even though we are finishing the Liturgy, we must still carry on in the Faith. Our worship and life in Christ doesn't end at the door. Even if certain elements do not impact the sacramental validity of a Mass, every element in the Mass and Liturgy serves to teach the truths of the faith.

"To be sure, I believe that our Byzantine Church is much more impacted by changes because our 'forms' represent to us the historical development that sustained us through persecution. The Western Church doesn't have the luxury of persecution to be immutable."

Dr. John, the argument that the Mass does not mean as much to a Latin Catholic as the Divine Liturgy means to an Eastern Catholic because of the persecutions the Eastern Church has undergone does not convince me. The Latin Catholic in the midst of modern Western society is being constantly persecuted by a variety of heresies, atheism, and perhaps most importantly, relativism (not to mention the many Latin Catholic saints who have been martyred and are being martyred as we speak). All Christians are hated by the world, and all of them need the Liturgy to be taught Christ's Word and then be given the Eucharist for the grace to live Christ's word.
I think what lies at the source of your post is that you have less respect for the Western Liturgy and theology and, therefore, are more willing to accept changes to them. You state that "It would be wonderful (would it?) if we all had the same practices. But we don't And we shouldn't be judgmental about those who do things differently. Perhaps this is more the perspective of the Western "tradition" [=everybody do the same thing], but us Eastern folks, being kinda messy, just don't get our panties in a twist over variation. It's OK." Why are you willing to apply what you admit is an Eastern attittude to judging Western Litgury? You should either remian silent on the question of the Novus Ordo or you should study the whole of Western theology, and then judge the Mass by the standard of "How does this Liturgy conform to Western Theology?" There is definitely a difference in how the Western Tradition approaches the question of different cultures, and you should respect that difference. As you have probably guessed by now, I was raised a Latin Catholic. God has since lead me to an Eastern Catholic Church. The point is that making these broad statements about the Novus Ordo formulated in Eastern terms is as ridiculous as a Latin Catholic trying to explain why receiving in both forms is not really necessary to the Divine Liturgy. You have to respect that you do not know what siginificance the parts of the Latin Mass have for Latin Catholics, in the same way that a Latin Catholic cannot know all the significance of the Divine Liturgy, even after visiting a few times.
I think we all have to be careful not to treat the Latin Church in any other way than in that which we want our Church to be treated. Part of that is respecting that the Mass is as important and significant to Latins and particular to Latin theology as Divine Liturgy is as important to us.
--Agape

I got lost in the discussion after it went off course from its original post. I believe the post was an attempt to discuss the BC attendance decline and not the Novus Order of the Latin Church and liturgical abuses. Am I mistaken?

Why do WE have an attendance decline?

You're right. Sorry for contributing to this post jumping its tracks! Agape

JThur,

Yes and No. The point being made is that "lazy" BC's are attending the "what ever is to be considered", modern version, in what ever diocese, RCC because it asks nothing of them so it is an easy way out for lax BC's (especially the youth) to just attend their liturgies for their Sunday obligation. It's been said before, it's easier to "become" a RC. It's tough being an Eastern Christian, whether a BC or Orthodox because our church is an "interactive" liturgy that requires participation. This has been the attitude of most adult BC's over the last 25 years and their childern are just acting like their parents have done! We are a reflection of our parents! I'm glad my father provided me with a good example!

Ung-Certez

Hi,

I know this is drifting again but Dr. John & Kurt what if you walked into Church for Liturgy and there was a banner across the front of the Holy Table that said St. So & so kids are great!Then on the Deacons doors there were about fifty or so paper plates with kids pictures on them saying So & so has a dog named Spot he or she likes the Ninja Turtles & my favorite food is Pizza. Or what if the Priest spent the Homily saying he wasn't going to wave the cloth over the gifts anymore during the Creed?That it wasn't necessary anymore. I have experienced this personally in the RC Church except it was the Lavabo. They are not all Urban Legends.A RC came to Liturgy for the first time this past Sat. She was blown away.She was in awe of the reverence & majesty. She said I really felt like I was truly worshipping God.St basil & St. John rule!

Nicky's Baba

Actually, I've sat through BC sermons that were entirely about the evils of communism and never referenced the Gospel nor mentioned Christ once. Is this not an abuse?

Axios

Dear Agape,

Joe Thur is right.

Not only did you go off topic in responding to Dr. John, but you completely ignored Dr. John's question about the cheese!

And that kind of insensitivity to our traditions is simply intolerable .

My mother uses ricotta and feta cheese, but then again, she isn't pure Ukrainian.

But nobody's perfect! .

Alex

Dear Friends,

We, up here, don't really have a falling off in church attendance.

The reason for this is that we still have quite a strong and compact ethnocultural community, with vibrant language usage, strong ties to the Ukrainian ancestral homeland, especially through new immigrants, and, truth be told, a Canadian multicultural context that supports diversity in this way.

It is "chic" and "cool" to belong to a non-mainstream cultural and religious group - religion and culture are so intertwined.

Even the mainstream English Canadians are now defining themselves as "English" "Scottish" etc. They are establishing their own cultural organizations and festivals to celebrate St George's Day, St David's Day (let's leave St Paddy alone, shall we? )

My own suggestion as an observer of "youz guys" in the U.S. is that the mainstream there is very strong and dominant as a cultural force.

To belong to a non-mainstream Church, such as the BC Church (for us, this term suggests a parish in British Columbia ), is to put oneself out of the mainstream and its acceptance. And that can be hard for people who want to be part of a cultural monolith which is the U.S. mainstream.

My further suggestion is for you to return to your monarchical roots before that "temper tantrum" YOU call the "American Revolution" and develop your own multicultural mainstream.

(Be nice in your responses to me, friends, remember - it's Lent - you know I love you all!)

Alex

I can see the points that people are making about the content and form of the liturgy. Let me pose a question:

If a parish's religious ed group has the little ones color-in paper icons, is it appropriate for the children (avec les images!) to take part in the Sunday of Orthodoxy procession with their "icons"?

Now this is certainly different from Nicky's Baba's examples, but I'm wondering if the parallels are not closer than we think. The reason is: if a child is given the opportunity to "have a presence" at the liturgy,including a picture with his/her dog or cat or gram'ma, then isn't this 'teaching' the child that the church is the good safe family place for all the things that you love? I know that it contrasts strongly with the "God is Present! On your knees, mortal!" perspective, but I think we have to find a balance between the two. I get so disheartened when I see a kid "talking" in church, and the parent takes him/her outside and then you hear "smack!" and then crying. Yet another candidate for the early-twenties "recovering Catholic" crowd.

For both West and East: yes, it's worship. Yes, God is present in a 'more special' way. And yes, 'ekklesia' means gathering/community, and people together hug, kiss and talk. It's the nature of the beast.

We adapt to time, place, circumstances, etc. to grow the community in the love of God and neighbor. We don't (and shouldn't) just willy nilly follow the old customs just because they are old. (I note that the Greek Orthodox Church in Anchorage did NOT hold the traditional Epiphany celebration of throwing the cross in the water for the young men to retrieve. It was 18 degrees below zero, with a wind-chill of minus 40...... "But, Father,....whhhhyyyyy can't we do it....." )



While there are some manifestations of liturgy that make some people uncomfortable, and there are other manifestations that annoy the others, we just have to make sure that we are proclaiming the Gospel to anybody who makes it through the front doors.

Even if we have to give them cheese. (With apologies to the Santa commercial from the National Cheese Board. And Alex.)

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

One of our parishioners recently called the monthly parish committee meeting a case of "whine and cheese."

Us "ethnics" up here involve our children in all sorts of liturgical and other events.

(Children are just great at pushing the refreshment wagons around the hall - kidding, kidding - no pun intended either!)

But really, all this talk about "involvement" sounds like the whole "actualization" debate by Abraham Maslow!

What you guys, down there, need is a good way to get people together for fellowship after Liturgy.

How is it that my daddy-in-law, Nestor, with his Ukara-yeeneeyan aksent can attract Canadians of British and other extraction from off the streets to come in to his parish? He's signing up Orthodox Christians by the dozen! And as long as they don't know who St Josaphat is . . .

And you can't?

Maybe I'll have to send Nestor down there to show youz guyz a thing or two!

God bless!

Alex