www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization tripple immersion baptism

Not when the original Baptism did not invoke the Trinity:

Australian bishop rebukes priests for invalid baptism [cwnews.com]

Dear Ray,

Thank you. I did not know! Shocked, I am.

Michael

Dear Michael,

As I understand it, ROCOR would baptize Catholic converts even BEFORE Vatican II . . .

This tradition of baptizing EVEN Orthodox Christians from Ukraine and Belarus who went to live in Russia according to the triple immersion is a long-standing tradition.

Not only Catholic converts were subjected to it.

Alex

Alex,

Huh? Are you saying they re-baptized people who were already baptized Orthodox?

Maximos

Through my learnings and understandings of the situation that ROCOR/ROCA endured through the last millennium, I understand why this choice may have been made. Let us hope this new millennium changes all situations for the better.

I am still deeply disturbed though regarding the unapproved liturgical changes effected by many of the priests of the RC Church. Instances like this throw huge wrenches in the process of reconciliation with our Eastern Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Lord Have Mercy!

Michael

Michael
It is not widespread just a few maverick nincompoops! Did I spell that right lol?

Dear Maximos,

Yes, the Kyivan Orthodox tradition allowed for "pouring" as a legitimate form of baptism, but the Muscovite Church denied that it was.

Thus, when Orthodox Christians from Ukraine or Belarus went to live in Russia, they were obliged to receive the "valid" baptism by trine immersion.

In Orthodox Russia of yesteryear, you needed to have a certificate of your Orthodox Christian baptism - a sine qua non of citizenship.

This is why there are some who say Russia's antisemitism was based on religion, not nationality or race.

If a Jew was baptized an Orthodox Christian, there was no limit to where he or she could go within the Russian imperial government.

Alex

I have to say I find the idea that there was corrective baptism for pouring rather strange. My understanding was that after the 17th century the norm in the Russian Church for receiving converts was via Chrismation and did not follow along with the Pedalion of St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mount. I could be incorrect.

I do seem to recall the ROCOR followed this practice in to the 20th century, and I believe Fr. Seraphim Rose for instance was received by Chrismation. I think they switched to the Greek practice in reaction to developments in the later 20th century.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I find it strange too!

Alex

IIRC, the practice was the have the chlid placed/seated in the font and the water poured over it's head. This is not quite the same as the later EC practice of dribbling a few drops over the head while the Godparent holds the child over a bowl or similar.

I will try to find the quote in the next day or two . . .

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

I have seen a baptism where the child was seated in the font in water and this water was brought up and the child was completely wet (3x times of course) but the head did not go below the waterline. I held the baby and the priest soaked the little one. The baby is now over 6 foot tall and his Dad is today a Russian Rite Priest.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel,

The Russians had the tradition of measuring the length of the baby and then writing the icon of the baby's patron saint on a piece of board cut to that length.

Is that something that is still practiced?

Alex

Dear Kobzar,

I will have you know that when I agree to be a Godparent, I INSIST on the full trine dunking!

It doesn't matter if the child screams its lungs out - it's good for them . . .

As for the practice of rebaptising - today it's water under the bridge . . .

And what do you think of my definition of the Basilians:

Latinizers of the worst Order?

(I promise everyone I'll be better behaved next week when the True, er, Julian Calendar Great Fast begins . . .)

Alex

The practice of the ROCOR is to trine immersion. For one thing , those who have come esp from Prot backgrounds, and their many and varied theologies, preclude the necessity of a proper and complete baptism. Also, by be properly baptised, when , as in the catacomb Church in the old Soviet era, on could effectively Baptise one own child, or another, with lay prayers said, and when, or if?? a Priest came around, he would say the Priestly prayers, and Chrismate. Personally, I see this as legitimate in the present climate in of western liberalism, and apostacy, esp if one has a non-confessing spouse, and if, the Priests are far and few. My personal experience here. (IE...been there, done that..) S Bohom, mik