www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine vs. Tridentine vs. "Novus Ordo"

Dear all,

Not infrequently on this forum, a post-er has expressed the opinion that both the Byzantine-Rite Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine-Rite Mass are beautiful and sublime liturgical expressions, while the so-called "Novus Ordo" Mass is to be accounted a liturgical monstrosity, one of the worst mistakes of Vatican II.

As an RC who has been raised in the Novus Ordo, and who has attended a number of Byzantine and Tridentine liturgies as well, and who is certainly no expert on liturgy (but is very interested in it), I'd like to express some opinions of my own:

There is no doubt in my mind that the Byzantine-Rite Divine Liturgy is both beautiful and sublime, a "little taste of heaven." Whenever I attend one, I feel as if I have "really been to church." Divine Liturgy succeeds in raising my heart, mind, and soul to heaven, and imparting a sense of the sacred.

While the Tridentine Mass does impart a sense of awe, I do not get the same feeling as I do when I attend Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I feel disconnected, even when I follow along in the missal. I do not feel as if I have participated in worshiping my God, but rather, just been an observer.

The "Novus Ordo" Mass gives me a similar satisfaction of having participated in worship as does Divine Liturgy. I do agree that Divine Liturgy more often succeeds in imparting a sense of the sacred, of being "lifted up." And I certainly find myself cringing (often) during a "Novus Ordo" Mass at unilateral alterations of or deviations from the rubrics, or liturgical "sloppiness" on the part of the priest and the ministers, or when the focus is too much on the people or the priest, and not on God.

However, I have been witness to my share of "Novus Ordo" Masses that have been celebrated beautifully, and sacredly, for that matter. It can be done. And, I believe, that is how it is MEANT to be done.

One also must keep in mind that one of the key characteristics and hallmarks of the the Roman-Rite Mass (and a major way it differs from Byzantine-Rite worship) is its SIMPLICITY--and my understanding is that this is an objective the Vatican II fathers were trying to return to.

The fact is the Roman-Rite Mass--Tridentine or "Novus Ordo"--is not SUPPOSED to look like a Byzantine-Rite Divine Liturgy.

But good liturgy certainly is good liturgy--and we all know it when we have participated in it, don't we?

In Christ,

Martin

Dear Martin,

Yes, ultimately we know "good Liturgy" when we experience it, nomatter what Rite/Church we are worshipping by and in.

There are "Independent" Orthodox Churches in the U.S. who have multiple Rites, including the Ambrosian, Mozarabic and Gallican.

They also use BOTH the Tridentine and Novus Ordo Western Rites. The magazine "Orthodox Catholic" used to print articles on these.

Some may argue that the independent Orthodox Churches aren't canonical etc.

However that may be, I do think they have a keen insight into liturgical expressions that are adaptable to people's spiritual and cultural needs.

Alex

Personally, I think I'd find participation at a Catholic Roman-Rite, Anglican-Use Mass fulfilling. This is based on reading the text of the Mass posted on the website of one of the Anglican-Use parishes in Texas, and having attended/viewed Episcopalian worship services. (I've always said that those Episcopalians have an edge on the Roman Catholics when it comes to liturgy. Great processionals.) Very dignified, poetic, solemn, and yet, participatory.

It seems like an old loyalist like yourself, Alex, would similarly enjoy Anglican-Use.

(I've tried to confuse everybody by changing my displayed name and avatar!)

Martin

Dear Martin,

Yes, I've attended a number of High Anglican services for monarchist league purposes.

The High Anglicans are like Roman Catholics, except that they are more strict and have more beautiful liturgies .

There is also, as I've had occasion to mention before, a "Lutheran Rite" used by a group called the "Evangelical Catholic Church" that uses many aspects of the Lutheran heritage, rounded out by Orthodox faith and liturgical tradition. I think they eventually want to enter communion with Antioch.

Alex

Hello:

I think it is very sad that we judge the Liturgy by the mood it instills on us, and by its appealing to our own subjective aesthetic criteria.

This, in itself, defiles the Liturgy.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Yes, certainly we "get from" the liturgy what we "bring to" it.

But liturgy is part of spiritual culture that reflects our values.

And it should always reflect the highest and best of what we value.

Alex

I would disagree, Memo. One can appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the Liturgy and still know what is the most important thing about it , the encounter with Our Lord and his Body and Blood.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

Peace,
Brian

Memo wrote: "I think it is very sad that we judge the Liturgy by the mood it instills on us, and by its appealing to our own subjective aesthetic criteria."

I think to an extent you are correct, Memo, and that we as products of contemporary society sometimes have a tendency to wrongly regard liturgy as "entertainment," whether we be disaffected teenagers, or those with highly refined tastes.

However (and I may just be naive about this), to me the purpose of liturgy is to afford all God's people (ordained and lay) the opportunity to worship Him, and to offer Him the sacrifice of praise; and to do so "with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength." In a word: Participation.

I'm sorry, but for me, the Tridentine Mass, as solemn and awesome as it is, had been developed to the point where it did not permit for the proper engagement by the "person in the pew," and I believe that this is one of the reasons it was reformed. Have abuses crept in that have taken the "Novus Ordo" Mass too far in the opposite direction? Absolutely.

But I will take a well-celebrated "Novus Ordo" liturgy any day.

Martin

By the way: Does anyone know how I can get my picture of St. Martin de Porres to be not so big?

Martin,

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Admin

By the way, can anybody tell me how I can get my picture of St. Martin to be "not so big?"

Thank you, Administrator. I will get working on that. In the meantime, I have changed my avatar.

"There is also, as I've had occasion to mention before, a "Lutheran Rite" used by a group called the "Evangelical Catholic Church" that uses many aspects of the Lutheran heritage, rounded out by Orthodox faith and liturgical tradition. I think they eventually want to enter communion with Antioch."

From what I have been reading about these kind of groups, I think it is good to be discerning because it reflects an intention of mixing Orthodoxy with Protestantism, Light with Darkness, water and oil, the religious with the secular world. The AOC itself has been experiencing problems with covert priests who have turned their parish into a "Lutheran Eastern Rite" which has caused the alienation of many craddle Orthodox of Arab origin.
Nothing good can come from this, the example of some of the negative aspects of Vatican II, as explained by Martin, must be kept in mind.

Hi:

But we are not in disagreement. Of course one can, and actually should, appreciate the beauty of the Liturgy.

Even more, those in charge of conducting the development of Liturgical practices have the duty and obligation of ensuring the Liturgy is indeed beautiful, for the Liturgy is for God, and God is the Ultimate Beauty.

But precisely because of that, we cannot *reduce* the value of the Liturgy to its ability to entertain us individually.

I am a Novus Ordo man. A well-celebrated Novus Ordo Mass is a deep spiritual experience for me.

I do appreciate the flexibility of the Latin Rite to include cultural and temporal elements, allowing the Liturgy to permeate those elements with authentic Christian spirituality.

I can also appreciate the solemnity of the Tridentine Mass.

I am in love with the Byzantine Liturgy.

And I can go on and on...

But you know what? I can do this because I know that at the core of every liturgical tradition, there is the very same Eucharist, and the very same God whose love for me is so great, that He's figured out a way to come to me as food and medicine, literally, even visibly to help my little faith.

That the Liturgy is also "pretty" (and all of them are, really), is an extra.

Shalom,
Memo.

Those were some great points at the introduction, Martin. As someone who was heavily involved with the Tridentine movement and Archbishop Lefevbre many years ago (and now a subdeacon in the Ukrainian Catholic Church) I can see much truth in your words.

I have found that the whole "liberal-trad" conflict in the Roman Church has and continues to polarize and divide, right or wrong. Even with the "trad" communities who are in communion with Rome there seems to be often an elitism and even many of the priests are bitter or very negative about the Novus Ordo.

Vatican II keeps getting dragged through the dirt by traditionalists. It's ridiculous, especially when the Constitution on the Liturgy from Vatican II (Sacrosanctum Comcilium) exhorts the use of Gregorian chant and describes the Liturgy the source and summit of the Christian life.

While I am sympathetic to the traditional liturgical movement, and love sung Latin Masses, I don't think the Low Mass (which was very prevalent in the Roman Church before Vatican II) with a priest mumbling Latin between an altar boy and the congregation far in the distance praying private devotions is what the Church has in mind for "full and conscious participation" of the laity in the Liturgy.