www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Statues in Eastern Catholic and in Orthodox Churches

Hi,

What are the customs, guidelines or rules regarding statues in Eastern Catholic churches? Do these differ much from those in Orthodox churches?

Irenaeus

Pardon me, but these sort of questions are beginning to bother the heck out of me. Questions about rosaries, benedictions, statues, stations, etc. are not honest inquiries about Eastern Christianity. Sorry, if I am so forward. Please refer to my thread "Seeing with Byzantine Eyes."

https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000038

I am responding to this question(?) only because I feel another 'litmus test' coming on. If you have been to a Byzantine Catholic temple you will see no statues - unless these folks are trying to be something they are not. The iconostasis has 'icons' on them, so the same with the tetrapod.

Cantor Joe Thur

Cantor Joe,

I have to take issue with the satement you made about no statues in eastern christian temples. At the cathedral parish in Canton, Ohio, the Romanian Byzantine Cathedral, there is a statue of the Mother of God. The Romanian people have a very great devotion to the Mother of God in all of her forms.

Peter

Br. Peter,

I understand and am aware of such things. But they always end up on the side somewhere. Never on the iconostasis, never carried in procession for Sunday of Orthodoxy, and never venerated on the tetrapod or other icon stand. What one does as private devotions is different from what the Church does liturgically. Do the people venerate the statues when entering the Temple? Does the priest kiss the statue of Mary before entering the altar? Our Temples also have kneelers, but the fact that we make prostrations assumes that there are none present. They are present but add absolutely nothing to our worship. Pews actually get in the way of our Byzantine "form" of worship. What we do as Byzantine Christians and what is in our Temple may be two different things.

I've been inside Byzantine Catholic temples for liturgy with statues, but never were they 'involved' in liturgical piety as icons are. Byzantine Catholics also pray the rosary, but it too is never 'involved' or incorporated into our public liturgies, unlike our Akathist to the Theotokos whereby the priest stands before Mary's icon.

Cantor Joe Thur

[ 04-15-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Cantor Joe,

I am glad that you clarified your remarks, and I agree with you 100%

Dear Irenaeus,

Statues as objects of public, liturgical veneration are actually forbidden in Eastern Churches, according to the Eastern Canons.

Rosaries and other Latin devotions are fine when practiced as private things by Catholics of other Rites and Churches.

The public liturgical expression is something altogether different and comes under different rules that must be adhered to stringently.

Statues in particular are not allowed because, unlike an icon, one can only portray the Human Nature of Christ in a statue.

In an icon, with its specific art-form, one may depict the Divinity of Christ in His Divinized Body, as well as the Theosis of the Saints.

As such, statues do not tell the whole story of Christ's identity or of that of the Saints.

A statue has no place anywhere in an Eastern Church.

Alex

Dear Cantor Joe,

I agree with you 100%!

St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the Rosary daily and expected his spiritual children to perform the "Rule of the Mother of God", all 150 "Bohoroditse Divo" daily as well.

But they did this outside, while walking around the perimeter of the walls of the Diveyevo Monastery and it was otherwise a private devotion.

This paraliturgical devotion has almost become "liturgical" in the Latin Church with it being said in Church aloud or else at funerals etc.

My own view is that anything befits private devotion, but that the liturgical tradition of our Church should and must be adhered to, as the Popes said, "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" or "nothing added, nothing subtracted, nothing changed" (i.e. the authentic Eastern Church tradition we inherited from Orthodoxy, our Mother Church).

How are we doing today, Cantor?

Alex

Thank you for your replies.

And dear Cantor Joe Thur, I am surprised at your cynicism at the sincerity of my post. I meant it as I wrote it - as two questions - and not as any sort of a "'litmus test'" or its precursor. I'm unsure why you seem to have suspected a wolf in sheep's clothing. Why even the name "Irenaeus" exudes irenicism - peacefulness (though perhaps you thought that was more wolfishness beneath sheepishness) - and St. Irenaeus was both an easterner and a westerner. Maybe you're slightly disappointed that he moved from east to west =). I am reminded of Fr. William A. Jurgens' description of the wonder that surrounds Irenaeus' exchanging "figs for frogs" - his move from the figs of Asia to the frogs of what was then Gaul and now France (William A. Jurgens, 1970, "The Faith of the Early Fathers" (Vol. 1), The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, MN, p. 89).

I am Roman Catholic and in the last few months have attended Byzantine, Ukrainian, Greek Melkite and Maronite Divine Liturgies here in southwestern Connecticut. I even observed an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I am genuinely interested in learning and have little interest now in debating.

Pax,
Irenaeus

Irenaeus,

Christ is Risen!

Although religious statuary was not totally absent in the history of Christian Byzantium, the icon has prevailed and expresses best the church's understanding of what a religious image is. Therefore, for the centuries since, statues, as a norm, are not used in Eastern Churches. The introduction of religious statues in Eastern church buildings is most probably due to imitation of Western religious art (as well as architecture). In the Byzantine churches in which I have seen statues, the statues associated with popular Western devotions: Sacred Heart, Our Lady of Grace, Infant Jesus of Prague, Our Lady of Fatima.

I was brought up Roman Catholic, and appreciated much of the religious images (including statues) in my parish church and the family home. It is noteworthy that even as a child I was atracted to the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help, which is originally an Eastern icon, but much beloved by Italians, Hispanics and Filipinos as well. I used to wonder why the Christ child looked too old to be a baby in the Virgin's arms.

In Christ,

Lazareno

Dear Irenaeus,

Actually, you shouldn't feel bad about Cantor Joe's remarks.

He was really addressing them to me, as I believe, for my thread about Latin devotions Eastern Catholics privately practice.

He is otherwise a wonderful gentleman, who is devoted to the Church, his community and his family.

And when it comes to defending our Eastern Christian patrimony, Mark of Ephesus has nothing over the good Cantor .

I also understand he has a great singing voice!

God bless you in your path!

Alex

I know that some some Greek, Romanian and Arab Orthodox famillies have small altasr in their homes for private prayers with statues of the Mother of God, but they're not for the liturgy.

Dear Remie,

Yes, and I've seen small carved wooden statues of saints kept with the icons in church as you enter e.g. Bulgarian Orthodox parish of St Clement Okhridsky.

There is the story of the miraculous Byzantine Statue of Christ that one may find in the Rudder, the only early example of a miraculous Eastern statue that was widely venerated at one time.

Alex