www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Will constantinople be Orthodox Again?

I have just finished reading a book on the life of Elder Paisius of Mt. Athos who many orthodox consider to be a modern orthodox saint who will soon be glorified by the church as such, and in this book it mentions that both he and many other orthodox saints have prophesied that modern Istanbul will once again become Orthodox and most probably within our lifetime. According to the prophecy of the saints some sort of major disaster will occur and 1/3 of the turks of the city will convert and become Orthodox, 1/3 will leave and go to eastern anatolia, and 1/3 will die. Has anyone heard of this prophecy and what are your views of it. It will be a wonderfull thing if after all these centuries the city will once again become christian and orthodox and the population revert to their original faith.

Judging from the title of the thread, I expected the initiator to inquire about Constantinople's return to Holy Catholicism.

Woops!

Nope, phoenix, I've never heard of that prophecy. Then again, I haven't exacty scoured the bookstore for books about Athonite monks either. Hope it's true.

Logos Teen

Dear Pheonix,

I haven't heard or read about this prophecy, but I will tell you that there is a Greek (Orthodox) saying that translates something like this...'again and again, with the years, Constantinople will once again be ours'.

The prophecy is interesting though, and I HAVE heard of this elder's holiness.

Perhaps I am a pessimist regarding this prophecy because it involves a Muslim country. Ofcourse, one cannot help but hope and pray that it may be so once again!

Imagine Haghia Sophia restored to its original purpose, a house of Christian worship! THAT would be awesome, (especially after the disappointment one feels seeing huge Islamic signs hanging from the ceilings and minarets around its perimeter.)

Welcome to the forum!

In Christ,
Alice

Both Lord Norwich and Sir Steven Runciman report that in Greece to this day the story is told that when the Turks stormed into a Hagia Sophia packed with worshippers imploring God's mercy, they hacked their way up to the sanctuary, where the liturgy was being sung. As the Turks entered the sanctuary, the priests gathered up the Holy Gifts and disappeared into the South wall. It is said that when an Orthodox ruler reigns in the City again, the priests will come out from the wall and the liturgy will be resumed.

May the day be hastened.

Dear Pheonix,

What book have you been reading about Elder Paisios? I have been looking for a good book on his life.

Yours in Christ,
Arturo

I can say there's a huge needing of Jesus Christ among ethnic Turks. If Orthodoxy has not been succesful it's the Church's fault, because it stopped being missionary and because the modern Bishops are too interested in having good relations with the Turkish government which is openly masonic and anti-christian in its nature. It also fails because they have no interest in evangelizing the Turkish people and enough moral courage to dennounce the horrible persecutions and human rights violations against religious people in Turkey, specialy against Christians (Kurd Catholics, Armenian Apostolics, and even some members of Protestant sects). The Church often trains priests in Cosntantinople and instead of staying in Turkey they are sent to the USA, France or even Greece. The situation is even worse. Turks who were born Orthodox ("Cosntantinopolitan Greeks") are almost lost to their Church, they've become very secularized, such as the Muslim Turks, and they even participate in government lodges.

Dear Snoopy,

The Ecumenical Patriarchs of Constantinople until VERY recently had their very right to exist SEVERELY restricted. They weren't even allowed to leave the country until recent years.

You may think that His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew only cares about good relations with the Turks, but his very existence has depended on this good will. His All Holiness has been called upon (by faithful in other countries, especially in the U.S) to move to another country because of these humanitarian civil rights violations, but that would be changing the memory and the course of history, abandoning the second greatest city of Christendom, and forever forfeiting our right to those properties (although few) and holy treasures which we still can call our own. Not to mention what that would do to the psyche of many Orthodox Christians, and especially Greeks. That would be the final blow, and the final triumph, if you will, of the Muslim Turk. Our history is long and painful.

Also, His All Holiness not only has to contend with the Muslim Turks, whose greatest joy would be to have not one remnant of Christianity left in their country, but also with a loud mouthed dissident lay movement in this country, his largest eparchy, (the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America) that wants to seperate from him (ASAP) and his See, and be autonomous and/or eventually autocephalous.

He claims that the time isn't right because the church here isn't spiritually mature. In this position, I personally believe that he couldn't be more right!!

In Christ,
Alice

Snoopy:

Your assessment of the situation is unfair and unjust to history.

You need to read the short work "The Ecumenical Patriarchate Under the Turkish Republic: The First 10 Years" by Harry Psomiades to understand just what happened to make the EP stay in Turkey.

That work is available online if you are interested in reading it.

anastasios

Well stated!

The prophecy is similar to the one that St. Kozma of Aitolos made for the Muslims in the Balkans (a 1/3 convert, flee, die formula). Supposedly, the Serbs had a similar one for the Muslims of Kosova, but the KLA and NATO showed them a thing or two. God knows if any of these prophecies will come to pass.

Interestingly, we do know that Constantinople sits very close to one of the most dangerous geological fault lines in the world and is said to be due for a catastrophic earthquake.

Barring these calamities, Turkey will enter the EU, sooner or later, and the process of secularization there will intensify. This will be the time when Orthodoxy will have a chance to grow in Turkey.

Alice is 100% correct in viewing the situation of the Patriarchs of Constantinople as both thoroughly unique and precarious.

But let's view this whole issue as Christians.

We are first obligated to love the Muslim Turks as Muslim Turks, all the while wanting for them the full truth and light of the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Love comes first, then evangelism.

If we hate them, will they ever convert?

So it is with all of our neighbors. If they know us as the children of the saints they are more likely to embrace the truths that we hold than if they know us as the children of perdition.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

One of the geological explanations of the Great Flood is that the Bosphorus opened up, allowing the Mediterranean to flood what is now the Black Sea. Perhaps this innundation was caused by an earthquake.

I think you are right that greater ties with Europe will open possibilities for evangelization in Turkey. But you are very right that we are called to love turks as Turks and as Muslims, even though that can be hard to do.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Hi, thanks for the reply guys, interesting take on the question i posted. To answer some of your questions, the book that i read on Elder Paisios is called, ready for it, Elder Paisios by Hieromonk Christodulus of Mt. Athos. Its in greek but i have seen it translated into english. Its a hugely popular book both in Greece and here in Canada, and there is a second volume called Vessel of Election when translated i suppose. Rather than being specifically books of his life they are more first hand gatherings of his conversations with disciples (the author was a spiritual child of his and had first hand knowledge of conversations and events), examples of his prophetic spirit and gift of clairvoyance, mystical experiences and miracles that he performed. He was also noted for his irrepressible humour and wit.
Also in regards to what Sno0py said i don't think that it is a fair assessment at all. As Alice pointed out even now incredible pressure is put on the Patriarch by the Turkish government and most of his freedoms are curtailed, one small example being that the seminary school on Halki has been closed since 1979 and the Patriarch is not allowed to reopen it. Therefore all new priests must be brought in from Greece or sent there to attend seminary. They also have to worry about constant threats that are made and the Patriarchate needs to be guarded.
Despite all that the Patriarch does an excellent job of ministering to his flock, not only the Greeks of Istanbul but also all of the secret or hidden orthodox christians who are not generally known about outside of Turkey. These are either christians whose families formally converted under the period of conquest to escape persecution but remained christians in private, or Turks who have converted but for one reason or another, either because of family pressure or other considerations have to keep the fact that they are christians secret. These secret christians have been numbered at around a hundred thousand.
Finally i have never heard or read anywhere in any of his prophecies that St. Kosmas Aitolos prophecied that the Balkan muslims would convert.
However, all of the prophecies of the Elder Paisios have so far come to pass.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Some sermons of Geronta Paisios of the Holy Mountain can be obtained online at http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/fathers/indexpaisios.htm

His works in print in English can be purchased from St. Herman's Press at http://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog

I especially recommend his "Epistles" which are beautiful sermons given to his spiritual daughters, the nuns of the convent of St. John the Theologian in Thessaloniki.

Dear Diak,

Welcome back - nice to 'see 'you again

Anhelyna

Hi

Yes tha last popst was probaby exagerated. I know these facts because of a Greek-Turk I know.

As you must have seen, I've defended Patriarch Bartolomew in many posts, I agree with Alice and I I think this good will is the only way for him and the Church in Turkey to survive.

I believe the laity in the United States and Oorthodox countries have been very passive and have not done so much to defend Orthodox people in Turkey from the abuses against religious freedom and the restrictions against Bishops and priests there. But not only that, the governemnt of Turkey is one of the worst violators of human rights and their atrocities are as bad as those of Hussein in Iraq and no western country has spoken againts that, and they even think about anexing Turkey to the UE.

It would also be sad if the Ecumenical Patrarchate leaves the sea of Constantinopolis because this place allows it to be outside the controversies between jurisdictions.

About this thing of the 3/3's, it has been said many times before. I remember that idea of the Croatians of exterminating one third of the Serbs, expelling another third, and converting the rest to Roman Catholicism in WWII.

I would like the elder's prophecy to become true, but not 1/3 of the turks to die or the rest to leave, they deserve a better government and a better religion, and their right to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ (not the Koran or the fake Protestant religion) should not be denied.