www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Can the Latin Catholic Church learn from ROCOR?

I was thinking.... and I know that this can be dangerous..... :p

Can the Latin Catholic Church learn from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia in reagards to the treatment of the Traditional Latin Mass groups.

I am thinking about the Old Rite communities within ROCOR.

Could Rome ever follow suit for the Trad Latin crowd?


David

well...the tridentine mass is allowed right? as long as the faculty is there and congregations to attend with permission of the bishop. i think rome could do more to promote it as being more acceptable in various dioceses. but it is no longer allowed to be the norm for the latin church so it can only be promoted so far. however, as of right now rome doesnt have to worry abt that, and Pope John Paul II on various writings has had words of encouragment for the tridentine mass.

David,

AFAIK there is only one Old Ritualist community in communion with ROCOR, there are many more in communion with the MP.

Isn't the The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter [fssp.com] doing this in the RC Church? Isn't that official and non-schismatic?

Tony

As I have found out from experience, the Old Rite situation in ROCOR is not what it seems.

The parish in Erie is the be all and end all and poor Bishop Daniel, despite his title of vicar for the Old Rite, seems to have no function whatsoever. This is sad, as he is such a sincere and warm bishop. Any other Old Ritualists wishing to be under Bishop Daniel's omophor are referred to their local New Rite bishop, unless they are in gigantic numbers, like the priestless Old Believers of the Baltic, presently in discussion with Bishop Daniel (selective responsibility?).

ROCOR may accept (tolerate?) the Old Rite as Orthodox and salvific, but it does not welcome other Old Believers. It is a farce and not an example to be held up or used in comparison.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear David,

In some ways, the comparison between the Traditionalist RC's and Rome and the Old Believers and Orthodoxy isn't a good one.

For one thing, the Old Rite affected only the Church of Russia in the main, not all of Orthodoxy. The Greeks, in the end, told the Russian Nikonians that how one makes the Sign of the Cross and related issues is not something that should separate Christians etc.

And the issues for which the Old Ritualists were prepared to stand their separate ground on were quite "tame" by comparison to the many issues that the TradLats have with the Novus Ordo and Vatican II.

The disagreement between the TradLats and Rome is a "universal" disagreement in a Church that is centrally governed and that has traditionally imposed a liturgical uniformity on its world-wide parishes.

To allow a vibrant Tridentine community to flourish would be to run the risk of having two competing liturgical traditions side by side in parishes and regions - with the possibility that the Novus Ordo could "lose" the tug of war in terms of people foreseeably, in many areas, attending the Tridentine liturgy more frequently etc.

The TradLats want Rome itself to change universally. They believe Rome made mistakes in its liturgical reform and in its theological reform at Vatican II.

TradLats in communion with Rome may tolerate the situation as long as they may celebrate and believe in the pre-Vatican II ways.

But ultimately this is a disagreement that runs deeper than the liturgy itself.

As one put it, Rome introduced a horizontal approach to God and man when it has always been vertical . . .

It's more an "all or none" issue.

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

What of the Belakrinitsa Old Believers and the new Old Believer Patriarch in Russia?

Your assessment of them?

Alex

Dear Alex -

The Belayakrinitsy? As you know I fell foul of them because I wouldn't accept the idea that only they constitute Orthodoxy. They have become very narrow over the past few years as His Beatitude Metropolitan Alimpii has been increasingly surrounded by nationalists of a Russian Old Believer messianic mindset. I would have been happy to have been accepted into their midst by chrismation with the Holy Chrism from before the raskol, but would not agree to baptism when I have a proper Orthodox baptism in the first place. They have really hardened on this issue, which is ironic considering their episcopate was received from a Greek Metropolitan who had embraced the Old Rite. My former bishop/abbot was received as unbaptised and unordained.

I still have the greatest respect and veneration for Metropolitan Alimpii and the Russian Church. It is pure and holy, despite its misguided fanatics. It is simply a pity that it has changed direction over the last few years.

The Novozybkov Old Rite Orthodox, though fewer in number are very, very Traditional - probably more so than the Belayakrinitsy. However, I do not know how they receive others into their jurisdiction. When the New Martyr, St Andrei Ufimsky became a bishop of them, it was simply by annointing and confession of faith.

For me, the most interesting Church is that of Georgian Old Believers, as it openly preaches the relevance of Old Orthodoxy to non-Slavs and has won many Georgians over to the Old Rite Orthodox Tradition - with Old Georgian liturgy and chant, Georgian iconography and Church art. This is exciting and very good news within Old Rite Orthodoxy.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Really now? Rome did that? When and how?

As for the horizontal versus vertical metaphor - how do you get the Cross without both?

Dear Fr. Mark,

On what day is "Alimpii" remembered in the church? I can't find this name, I can find Olymii and Alipii but not Alimpii.

Tony

Bless!

Father Mark:

Can you to direct me to more information (on line or elsewhere) about the Georgian Old Believers?

With Thanks,

Michael

Around the end of this year, the Tridentine rite will be given much more freedom. It will be allowed in every diocese, regardless of the bishop's will. The Vatican will supposedly try it's hardest to allow it in every parish, if at all possible.


I know y'all think I'm just blowing smoke, but wait and see. This has been verified by Cardinal +Arinze and other hierarchs.

Just so ya know.

Logos Teen

End of this year is the third date that rumor has been given. I expect we will soon hear that "insiders" know it will happen at Easter of 2004, and then ......

What other dates have you heard? I've always heard, from the very beginning of this, that the announcement/decree/whatever is supposed to be issued anywhere between October (or November; can't remember which) and Christmas of this year. And yes, this is commonly called "the end of the year."

Logos Teen

Dear Tony,

I may be misreading you, but Met. Alimpy is still alive and is not canonized - St Ambrose is.

Both "Alimpi" and "Alypi" are two versions of the same name, with or without the "m."

Alex

Dear Theist Doll,

I didn't say that - I've read Tridentine Catholics say that.

I agree with you . . .

Alex