www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West "Orthodox", what's in the name?

Just a quick question for all the knowledgeable Forumites:

I'm searching for a term (politically correct) that will include all Eastern Churches not in Communion with Rome.

If I say "Orthodox", I am presuming that the Non-Chalcedonian Churches will feel themselves part of that. Am I right?

Will the Assyrian Great Church of the East feel a part of that?

Thanks in advance.

Herb

They will, but some of the Chalcedonian Christians deny them the name Orthodox. In Russian, for instance, they can call the Non-Chalcedonian Churches by the Greek word Orthodox, that sometimes has negative implication, but themselves they identify as Pravoslavnye, that is actually Old Slavonic translation of the same term Orthodox. So the name Non-Chalcedonian Churches seems to be preferable.

Certainly, the Non-Chalcedonian Christians are insulted a lot if they are called by the names of the ancient heresies, such as Nestorianism and Monophysism. I know that the Armenians strictly object to the name Armenian Gregorian Church and insist on the name Armenian Apostolic one.

Valerius

Dear Herb,

One problem of course is that the majority of the East is not in communion with Rome . . .

"Churches of the Christian East" should probably do it!

Alex

"Eastern Christians" certainly catches most.

One convention seen somewhat frequently is to designate the Chalcedonians not in communion with Rome as "Eastern Orthodox" and the non-Chalcedonians as "Oriental Orthodox".

Appropos this topic, although only in the most tangential way, I was searching for something this evening and came across a website address that caught my eye. Lo and behold, when I went to it, I found that we who call ourselves Eastern Catholics are not alone. See

Welcome to the Eastern Catholic Church [easterncatholicchurch.org]

to see an ecclesia vagante that had previously escaped my notice. (By coincidence, a Hawaiian poster at CINEAST e-mailed me a few months ago, inquiring about an "Eastern Catholic" parish that he had encountered but couldn't identify jurisdictionally. Voila!)

And, lest anyone think these folks aren't mis-identified as or confused with "us", note the description of their metropolitan in a local news story:

Leading Eastern Catholic Cleric Will Discuss Islam and Status of Christianity [starbulletin.com]

Many years,

Neil

dear Forumites:

thanks for the help.

I'm actually looking for a term that specifies ALL non-Catholic Easterns Christians. (but I don't like "Eastern Non-Catholics" because it is in the negative mode, as it were).

If I were to say "Eastern Christians", that would include those In Communion with Rome.

Help???

Herb

Dear Herb:

From a "contemporary" Catholic perspective, I think your initial call could be the best descriptive: "Orthodox Christians."

If the Assyrians give a hoot, let's say "Orthodox Apostolic Christians."

(Otherwise, we are tempted to bandy the "schismatics" line again!)

Amado

Dear Amado,

Actually, the Assyrians call themselves the "Assyrian Catholic Church of the East."

They avoid "Orthodox" like the plague as it reminds them of the Miaphysites or Oriental Churches .

I think Herb is better off with "Churches of the Christian East."

The fact that "Churches" is in the plural will most likely divert the attention of most Westerners from considering EC's in the mix - Westerners would consider the EC's and RC's to be one Church.

Even though we EC's know better . . .

Alex

Good One Alex!

However, Eastern Christian Churches (as you admit) does still include the E Catholic Churches - sorry to have to be technical.

any more suggestions???

Herb

Alex,

Actually, they now use "Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East" as their official name.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

You are right, Brother in Christ!

Have you ever come across the "Assyrian Orthodox?"

Are these Chalcedonian Assyrians or are they Assyrians who have come into communion with the Oriental (Miaphysite) Churches?

Alex

Alex,

I believe the Ancient Church of the East has formally or informally utilized the name "Assyrian Orthodox" at some points in its existence or, if not, the name has certainly been used in reference to it in a way to suggest that it was its official name. But, if you're suggesting that the name has also been applied to others, you're right.

The Syriac/Syrian Orthodox Church in North America (which also used Assyrian Apostolic Church and Western Assyrian Church as descriptors) fairly commonly (and even officially, at times) styled itself as "Assyrian Orthodox" until at least the 1950s. And, until 1999, one could still encounter it occasionally in a few of their parish names, e.g., St. Mary's Assyrian Orthodox Church in Worcester, MA, its second parish in the US. The change of that parish's name to St. Mary's Syrian Orthodox Church was the subject of much rancor [bethsuryoyo.com] , resulted in the loss of some parishoners, and was finally effected only after the intervention of His Holiness Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, who had addressed the issue in an Encyclical [sor.cua.edu] , almost 20 years earlier. I am fairly certain that the Assyrian Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary in Paramus, NJ, successor to the first American Syriac parish, is the only one in which the older styling is still extant. (The whole issue of "trustee" ownership, that was discussed on a recent thread here, has played a part in this.)

The Syriacs were initially loath to use "Syrian" as an identifier in the US because of concern that they would be confused with the Syrian (Antiochian) Orthodox, whose Catholic counterparts, we Melkites, were also most frequently termed "Syrian Catholics". (As the non-Chalcedonian Assyrians had virtually no presence in the US until much later than the Syriacs, there was little likelihood of confusion there.) Ultimately, the issue of who would use the designation "Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch" was the subject of a civil court case between the two US hierarchs; the Syriacs won and, from that point onward, the Syrian (Rum) Orthodox had to be content with "Antiochian". A thesis done a few years ago at St. Vladimir's presents a nice summary of the history and the issues about the name, including reasons for their original assumption of "Assyrian" as an identifier.

Syriac Orthodox Church in North America [saintgabrielsyouth.com]

There are still a couple of Syriac organizations that use "Assyrian", most notably Beth Suryoyo Assyrian [bethsuryoyo.com] , which I believe is considered to be a somewhat controversial group (along the lines of some of the outspoken Catholic and Orthodox lay organizations) - not actually involved in promoting dissent, but certainly outspoken on what it perceives as abuses of authority, etc. (and there has been an ongoing, particularly nasty hierarchy-clergy-laity dispute [bethsuryoyo.com] in the West Coast Syriac Orthodox diocese for some time now).

Also, wasn't either "Assyrian Orthodox" or "Orthodox Assyrians" used by those Assyrians who came into communion with the Russian Orthodox [roca.org] and, ultimately, were assimilated into ROCOR?

Many years,

Neil

Dear Brother Neil,

Thank you for that comprehensive post!

Yes, the Assyrians of the ROCOR communion do indeed call themselves "Assyrian Orthodox" and I think Kallistos Ware makes mention of that term somewhere.

I think there were also a group of Assyrians who joined with the Miaphysites/Oriental Orthodox and assumed that name.

Alex

Alex,

That connection alludes me, but one Syriac site references the fact that it is still the practice of the Armenian Apostolic Church to refer to the Syrian Orthodox as "Assyrian Orthodox".

Many years,

Neil