www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Antiochian vicarate of the western rite

Has anyone ever attended a western rite liturgy with the Antiocian Orthodox? (sorry I don't know the offical name).I was just wondering, do they follow western customs (kneeling at concecration, crossing from left to right, and others) or do they follow eastern customs while using a western rite?

It's all western.

Crucifix, kneelers, genuglections, cross left to right, votive - not tapers, bells at consecration (i.e. this is my body...), rosaries, statues, no iconstatis, western vestments, altar against the east wall, holy water stoops at the doorways, choir loft, organ, altar rail, speaking of "mass" not Divine Liturty, daily communion, stations of the cross, etc.

The only eastern observations are a few icons, a "dunking" baptistry in the narthex, no filioque, and they had bells on their thruible (most westerners have silent censings).

I make these obersvations from attending St Peter's WR in Ft Worth, TX.

BTW, some WR parishes even celebrate Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament after Vespers.

Marshall

I'm gonna put what I put in the last thread

The Antiochian Orthodox Church has approved only two versions of the Western Rite:

1) an English translation of the Tridentine Latin Rite with some corrrections and a byzantine epiclesis (named after St Gregory)

2) a corrected version of an Anglican Prayer Book with numerous byzantine corrections and some prayers borrowed from the modern Catholic Mass (they call it "Liturgy of St Tychon)

However, it is clear that the development of this rite had nothing to do with the Orthodox East and that the existence of Western Rites has a problem of legitimacy (there's a good article by Father Schmemann about this).
The Tridentine Mass as we know it now (and the Antiochian translations come from this version)had suffered very important reforms (not so visible in the rite itself but clearly reflecting the doctrines of the Latin Church). The first of the reforms occured almost inmediately after the schism! and the second reform was the reform of Trent at the time of the Protestant revolts. These reforms occured in times of severe crisis of Faith in the West and have nothing to do with the pre-schism Church.
But we can deny that it is an ancient liturgy.

The second liturgy, named after St Tychon was clearly deficient. First of all it comes from a Protestant Church and we have no doubts that Protestantism has nothing to do with Orthodoxy. Since its creation, that Mass had the spirit of Protestantism. It had to be corrected with Russian Orthodox liturgical texts (if you read it you may notice that it looks a little bit like an abreviated Liturgy of St John Chrisostom + some latin prayers). It is a blend of texts and liturgies, seen as an unacceptable liturgical fiction.

The Orthodox Bishops of other jurisdictions were very critical. The Greek Orthodox Bishop of St Francisco issued a letter discouraging their faithful to attend those parishes and forbiding the concelebration with those priests.
(Recently, the AOC recommended the Western Rite parishes to use the Mass of St Gregory and the use of the second one was suspended, a revision is needed).

The history of the "Tridentine use" liturgy for the AOC remains as a mystery. It is strange cause most of he WR parishioners are former Episcopalians and not Latin Catholics.

I have never attended a WR Orthodox parish, but I can tell you what my friend said (she's been in many AOC parishes in the USA, byzantine but also WR).

I'm gonna tell you her description. As Marshall said, the appereance of the church is very "Anglican" but they have some icons and the vestments look very much like Old fashioned Episcopalian.

It is thought that they tried to atract some Catholic Congregations too, those who felt alienated by the liturgical reforms but.
Although the service has, in fact, the text of the Tridentine Mass, it sounds, looks and tastes like the New Mass. The whole service is in English (except the Kyrie), the hymns are very similar to those used in some Protestant and modern Catholic congregations accompanied by a little organ but sung in a reverent way, and the sermons was of a modernist inspiration (and an invited pastor participated in the sermon, and looked very much like an evangelical-style preaching), and the way communion is given looked a little bit strange (to her), some men and women crossed their arms and received a blessing, and others took communion in the hand (and by intinction, under both species).

Marshall wrote:

Almost. The bread used is leavened. I once asked a priest of the Western Rite about this and he said that it had to be leavened to be considered proper "but you really can't tell it is leavened" in the way it is prepared. So it may look unleavened wafers...but it isn't.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Friends,

This is truly a fascinating subject!

The Western Rite Orthodox have had to contend with outright Eastern Orthodox bigotry with respect to their Western liturgical heritage.

And I'm not only talking with the close-minded Russian bishops mentioned . . .

When I attended the Antiochian Western Rite conference here in Toronto, I was surprised to discover that there are Eastern Rite Antiochian who are likewise seemingly quite "anti-Western."

The Western Rite Orthodox have to contend with "creeping Easternization" as well . . .

They are not called to recreate within Orthodoxy the Western Rite tradition of the post-schism period, of course.

They study and hearken back to the ancient Christian liturgy and are able to effectively combat in a scholarly way Eastern Church criticism of their liturgical traditions.

But there are also those who love certain later Western devotions such as Eucharistic Adoration et al. and bring it into their daily practice with the approval of their Eastern Bishops.

One Western Rite Priest I know promotes veneration for the Anglican saint King Charles the Martyr, icon, candles, the whole nine yards.

I even wrote an Akathist to him that the priest says is too long for comfort . . .

This is all an education process for the Eastern bishops as it is for the Western parishes coming into communion with them.

Alex

Anglican King Charles II. Quite interesting, it's said that he was in fact a Catholic who didn't have enough moral courage to formally stop the Protestant reforms in England. I don't see many connections between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy, I still think that if they exist, they're artificial.

Remie,

I think Alex was speaking of King Charles I (d. 1649 I believe) rather than his grandson (or son?) King Charles II, who ruled during the 1660's I believe. But, I have heard what you have stated concerning King Charles II...we just watched the movie "Cromwell" in Modern Civ. class...makes me wanna punch Oliver Cromwell's lights out for his religious reforms and his treatment of the Irish, but that's another story.

ChristTeen287

Hi!

There's a beauteful western rite page, it is from New Zeland (it's a fullycannonical parish of the AOC). You should see the section of the Mass that is offered it has a great explanation and pictures, I'm convinvced that the text of their Mass is very beautiful.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/frjack/Ashley.html

about King Charles, your absolutely right, it was Charles II, just a little ignorance from me, hehe

Dear Remie,

I had to get a new ID before I could post. That's probably a good thing, as it gave me a bit of time to cool down...

You used a phrase to describe the liturgy that my people practice which I found, well, regrettable.

You said that the Rite of St. Tikhon was "seen as liturgical fiction."

I would ask you: Who sees it as liturgical fiction? You or someone you know? And what could this possibly mean?

If you make an archeological dig of our liturgy, you will find the protestant stuff, you'll find the Anglo-Catholic Stuff, you'll find the British and Celtic stuff, and you'll find some Eastern prayers thrown in and the filioque deleted. An interesting mix? Sure. Fiction?

Well, stop and consider the history of my people. From British Catholicism to protestantism to American Episcopalianism to Anglo-Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

If our liturgy reflects the journey that we have taken together, is it closer to fiction or history? Dare I say truth?

Yeah, it's a lot of development, but everbody's liturgy has developed right?

The thing is, it's beautiful, and it's Christ. My Bishop loves it.

So I hope you were'nt really endorsing the view. I wouldn't like to think you're on board with that kind of thing.

Sincerely,

David

P.S. Thanks for the kind words, Alex. Pray for me.

Dave I am sory, I didn't want to offend you and your liturgy. I wasn't a personal opinion, as you know, many Bishops of other jurisdictions (here in the New Continent) have held that the use of these rites could not be a restoration but the acceptance of a foreign element into Orthodoxy and that iff there's not the propper information, this could cause confussion among the faithful, specially the new faithful.

However I think it's totally fair and right that your Church provides an option to those good christians who have been alienated by the never ending innovation and the radical liberalism in their former Churches, in this case the byzantine Church can also be an option.

As I said in my second post , I admire your liturgy and I think it's beautiful.