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I was reading a non-updated Russian Catholic site. I learnt that the Byzantine Exarchate has six priests and that one of them came from the Old Ritualists.

I would like to know (if some of you have contacts in Russia or with the Russian Catholic Church) if the Old-Believer element is strong among Russian Catholics (they must have been a majority among Russian Uniats before the Revolution so I am surprised that they are so unknown now).

Are these Old-Believers as tradiional as their Orthodox brothers?

Do they have their own parishes? I am surprised that Catholicism hasn't managed to attract Old Believers to the Russian Exarchate since they do not have the prejuidces that some Russian Synodal circles have (anti-catholicism for example).

Maybe if the Catholic Church elected an Old-Believer as primate for all Byzantine Catholics in Russia, and the Old-Rite to be the first rite of the Russian Church, it would give strenght and identity to this Church, and woould avoid troubles with the Orthodox Church who thinks that the Catholic Church wants to get converts from it.

Spasi Khristos!

Mexican, actually Fr. Patapy Emilianov and Eustachy Susalev were both Old Rite priests of the Russian Catholic Church at the time of Exarch St. Leonid Feodorov.

Like the faithful of Russian Catholic Church herself, the remnant of the Old Rite Catholics are scattered all over Russia and organization is very difficult and we are hindered by both the Romans and the Orthodox.

In Oregon, Br. Ambrose is still going in residence at Mt. Angel but there is no priest to serve them for many years, probably since Abbot Damien (blessed repose) passed away. Fr. Ambrose is quite elderly now.

Г И Х С Б п н Аминь

Well, we could always start a parish somewhere. One would begin with a Hapgood - and make all the necessary changes in the Hapgood text and rubrics.

More seriously, one would either need a complete set of books in Church-Slavonic (which can be obtained nowadays) or a complete English translation of them. This is rather a daunting assignment, but could be done.

Perhaps occasional services here and there, for starters?

Простите меня Христа ради!

Incognitus

I think that the Old Ritualist (ROCOR) parish in Erie has liturgical books of the Old Rite in both languages.

The pastoral effectiveness and legitimacy of the Old Rite seems to have been forgotten by modern Eastern Catholics. The Ukrainian Metropolitan, before the revolution, has approved the use of both rites, without mixing them, to be implemented equaly.

It would be interesting to see how the reaction of Moscow would be, if a community of Old Ritualists was received by Rome, and their Bishop consecrated.

Some would ssay this would not be so important, since the O.B. are outside the ROC and belong to a different Church.

Mexican, actually the Russian Catholic Synod themselves voted to allow either the Nikonian or pre-Nikonian (Old Rite) usage but never an admixture of the two. Metropolitan Sheptytsky approved the articles of their Synod.

I would love as well to see an Old Rite mission or parish erected, regardless of what jurisdiction it ended under. That is the difficulty, since there is no functional Russian Catholic exarchate. I would happily be the deacon for such a mission...

Dear Mexican,
You write that "It would be interesting to see how the reaction of Moscow would be, if a community of Old Ritualists was received by Rome, and their Bishop consecrated."

I'm not certain, but that gives me the impression that you are not certain of the ordinations among the priestist Old Ritualists. However, the Holy See has already (in the time of Metropolitan �ndrew) recognized the validity of the ordinations done in the Russian Orthodox Old Ritualist Church; there is no question so far as that goes.

A question would arise if such a community came to the Catholic Church from one of the much smaller bodies which derive their orders from "Renovationist" bishops in the nineteen-twenties; neither the Orthodox nor the Catholics have ever recognized such orders.

On a practical level, especially if the question concerned only one community (parish or the equivalent), it would just be a matter of providing that community with a priest, and having a bishop do regular visitations. There are certainly Greek-Catholic bishops who could and would serve according to the Old Rite under such circumstances.

Incidentally, the rule against "mixing" elements of the Old Rite with other variations comes from 1917. Matters have moved along since then. There is no particular reason to think that some elements from the pre-Nikonian Muscovite usage could not be useful in the context of one or another of the present Byzantine-Slavonic Uses.

Incognitus

Dera Incognitus,

In fact, one may notice an increasing willingness among Russian Orthodox (Nikonians) to borrow from the traditions of Old Believers.

Alex

Dear Alex,
Quite so. There also are significant connections between Old Ritualists and Ukrainians, though I'm by no means sure to what extent either side realizes this.

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Fr. Taras the Studite (he told me he's heard of you but would not divulge your very guarded identity - are the bishops out to get you for something - KIDDING!), visited the Old Believers of Bila Krinitsa and said he was amazed at how closely a number of their liturgical texts coincided with that of the Ukrain . .. er Kyivan Greek-Catholics in communion with Rome of the 1596 unia of Brest etc. etc.

We have the same ending to the "Rejoice O Theotokos" prayer for instance.

There are also a number of Old Believer Martyrs who were, according to their calendar, monastics of the Kyivan Caves Lavra!

Alex

Dear Alex,
Do you not have a copy of the Old Orthodox Prayer Book from Erie? If you don't, get one at once!

Incognitus

Get the newer edition of the Erie book if you don't have it. It contains more troparia, etc. (however the Akathist to Jesus was removed from the first printing since it did not exist in pre-Nikonian times).

One does indeed see borrowings from the Old Rite, both here and in "old country". Fr. John Whiteford borrowed heavily from Bishop Daniel of Erie for his Reader's Service material.

Regarding the Old Rite - Ukrainian connection, Fr. Patapy's parish of Nizhnij Bogdanova was located in what is now Donbas. And, of course, Bila Krynytsia is in Bukovina...

Dear Incognitus,

Yes, I have the older edition of that prayer-book.

I also have a copy of a Bila Krinitsa Calendar and some other publications from the Old Orthodox in Ukraine.

(I actually helped them make a short film giving an overview of their history and they even put my name in the credits at the end! Can you make such a boast? ).

What I've noticed in the prayerbook of the Church of the Nativity in Erie is that they seem to have been obliged to include a number of prayers from the Nikonian tradition in their morning and night prayers that they've never had before . . .

And somehow they do not even have the feast of their most famous Saint Avvakum the Confessor and Martyr.

Are these "Jordanvillizations?"

Alex

Dear Father DIAKon!

Did not the Old Believers have the tradition of the Akathists - more than that to the Annunciation I mean?

Weren't the various devotional akathists the passion of Russian spirituality?

And I understand the Old Believers honour St Seraphim of Sarov - and yet the Staretz had a number of issues with them . . .

They positively despise St Dmitri of Rostov who was an enthusiastic opponent of their traditions and called them "uneducated" among other things.

Alex

Alex, you are certainly right, they do absolutely have the tradition of the Akathist or the Moleben with a Canon and/or Akathist. I personally love the Old-rite order of the Moleben as well as the flexibility and richness of all those Akathists and Canons when one is unable to keep the Horologion.

The way I understand it in this case is that there were some "purist" factions amongst the compilers in Erie who didn't want any prayers that did not exist in the Slavonic Old Rite prayerbooks to be put in the newer edition.

The Akathist to Jesus was from the Jordanville Prayer Book and it was decided to remove it in the later edition. Me, I would have kept it as it is beautiful - so I guess I do have some Nikonian weaknesses now and then.

Dear Father DIAKON,

Now you've twigged my curiousity . . .

I know about the psalms and Jesus Prayers and prostrations as replacements for the Horologion.

How does one replace the Horologion with Akathists and Canons?

Please come back, don't leave until you've responded here! I'm waiting breathlessly! Have mercy!

Alex