www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West St. John of the Cross

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I am currently reading THE ASCENT OF MOUNT CARMEL by St. John. Besides being spiritually uplifting, I am finding it to be very Eastern in its approach to Divine awareness. Has anyone else had this experience? Also, is this type of spirituality common among the Carmalite Order? I have little experience with the Carmalites but I am to understand that their praxis has an "eastern" slant. I am interested in what ways this is manifest.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

I have had the same experience. What John read or knew of the "eastern" spirit is unknown. But others have made the same comment to me. Had he read Nyssa, or Dionysius? We can't say, but the Salamanca Library where he studied was among the best in Western Europe.

Perhaps the question cannot be answered through academical analysis. John could teach and write with such clarity precisely because he was a scholar and a student by nature. But 'what' he taught he did not learn in the library. He was a pneumatikos, and was taught by God, in the way so many Fathers were taught, and so having drunk from the same chalice, they communicate a mystery we find 'familiar', even when we ourselves would not find spanish scholastic language its natural milieu.

The community of Carmel was born in the east at the end of the 12th century, and its early texts contain so many insights and indications of eastern indebtedness, and show this natural affinity with this spirit we recognize through our eastern Liturgy and spiritual works. When, in the West, these Carmelite texts were later misinterpreted or even ridiculed by late mediaevals, so immersed in their new culture and intellectual environment, they were shelved, or seen as curiosities. But it was precisely John (and his champion Teresa), who sought to recover the genius of these early texts, in their restoration of 'primitive' Carmel.

Their work of restoration, and John's writing in particular, struggled to recover the original fertile encounter which was Carmel's beginning. This renewal was successful to a point.

Setting the early Carmelite texts in an eastern context casts a new light upon them, and gives them an authority that has not been understood or appreciated outside of that context.

When readers with an 'eastern' view pick up these works, it is fascinating to see how they appreciate them. I would very much like to hear more about your own thoughts.

Elias

Well, for instance, St. John writes how the Divine is similar to a "beam of Light" cascading through a window. We see the beam of light only because of the dust in the air around it. One must remove the "dust" to truely perceive G-d's image. Yet, in doing so, the beam becomes invisible. Of course, the imagery being that we must remove all our perceptions of the Divine inorder to see what, once we are purified in thought and body, cannot be seen (I think).

This seems extremely similar to St. Gregory of Sinia's writings in the Philokalia about removeing our preconceived notions of G-d in order to fully experience His Grace. In other words, only by divesting ourselves of who we think G-d is and seeking Him alone can we ever hope for Theosis.

There have been other examples I shall try to provide that seem to illustrate other similarities. I think it well illustrates how both West and East share a great Spiritual heritage. Something to keep in mind when we argue about who has what....

Dmitri

The Carmelites used to call Elias the Prophet "Our Holy Father", and considered him their founder. They included his name in the Confiteor, and celebrated his feast day the same day we do. Their liturgy had some eastern highlights such as putting the wine and water in the chalice at the beginning of the Mass instead of at the Offetory. So I think they would have an "Eastern Spirituality" too.

Well, there is yet another example. Devotion to Old Testament persons seems more popular amoung the Easterners.

Dmitri

Dmitri,

When we remove all of our preconceptions of what God Is, should we still attempt to understand the Trinity? I know that the Mystery of the Trinity is not understandble to the human mind...I'm talking about what we know about it. It seems that trying to understand/learn about the Trinity (within the confines of what the God has revealed to the Church, Catholic and Orthodox alike) might be a stumbling block to Theosis, or at least the way you describe it. This can't be true, though; shouldn't we educate ourselves on everything the Church has revealed about the Trinity and still try to reach Theosis? How can we do this while at the same time tossing our preconceptions out the door?

ChristTeen287

I am no staretz, but I believe that the Fathers teach us that we must study the nature of the Trinity as taught by the Church. I feel that our study and knowledge of things Divine only impede us if we put that before the Divine itself. But as you state, the true nature is incomprehensible expect for G-d. However, G-d can reveal Himself to whomever He wishes and make Himself comprehensible if we are receptive (I think..) Thus, the dust must be swept aware as it were. (perhaps?!?)

I have a great deal more to study just to understand myself.

Dmitri

I am currently reading THE ASCENT OF MOUNT CARMEL by St. John. Besides being spiritually uplifting, I am finding it to be very Eastern in its approach to Divine awareness. Has anyone else had this experience? Also, is this type of spirituality common among the Carmalite Order? I have little experience with the Carmalites but I am to understand that their praxis has an "eastern" slant. I am interested in what ways this is manifest.
****************************
Dear Dmitri,
I'm happy that you are reading St. John of the Cross' "Ascent to Mount Carmel." His spirituality is common among the Carmelite Order. Many Orthodox Christians sees the "eastern" slant of Carmelite Spirituality. One is the experience of Hieromonk Kyrill who is belongs to the Third Order of the Carmelites. You can read his journey to carmel at this site: http://hometown.aol.com/ocdscarmel/frkyrl.html.
The history of the Carmelite Order dates back to Palestine where the Order was established. It has no founder but we call the Prophet Elijah and the Elisha our Spiritual Fathers and we celebrate their feasts with solemnity.

In Carmel,
ruel, tocarm.
www.ocarm.org [ocarm.org]

Sorry!
I posted a wrong url.
http://hometown.aol.com/ocdscarmel/frkyrl.html

In Carmel,
Ruel, TOcarm

Here is a beautiful webpage for a Byzantine Carmelite Monastery in France:

http://praiseofglory.com/byzcarmel.htm

Jenny

Thanks Ruel. I enjoyed learning about this dear Greek Orthodox Carmelite!

May Elijah and Our Lady pray for us all!
Marshall

Dear Jenny and Marshall,

(How are you two?)

Just a note to say that the icon of our Lady on that Carmelite website is a version of the original "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel" that is at Naples, Italy. It is also called "La Bruna" the "Brown Madonna" and "Our Lady of Naples."

It too is a Byzantine-style icon. The "restored" version included a small scapular dangling from our Lady's right hand.

The Carmelites were, in fact, an Eastern Church group of Greek hermits living in the caves of Mt. Carmel. Latin crusaders later joined them, but wore the same Eastern style monastic garb they did.

The appearance of Our Lady to St Simon Stock at Aylesford, England came about just when the Latin religious Orders were about to eject the Eastern Carmelites from England on the grounds that it was a Greek monastic group that had no place in the West.

That is when the abbot, St Simon (named "Stock" after the hollow oak tree in which he had his hermitage) prayed for help and received the vision of the Protection - which he interpreted to signify the actual wearing of the medieval apron known as the scapular or Paraman and "Analavos" in the East, but these latter terms implied a different function than the "scapular."

Alex

Hi Alex!

I'm doing fine, thanks for asking!

I had no idea about the icon, or that the Carmelites started in the East...very interesting!

I asked on the Forum a while ago about the Eastern churches reverence for St. Therese of Lisieux. After reading a little more, I can see now why there is great love for St. John of the Cross and Carmelite Spirituality.

God Bless,

Jenny