www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Converts & Their effect on the Church

Abdur,

Its more like a person who follows and lives out the teaching of Jesus not just saying you believe.We benefit by what we have received as our inheritance as Christians which is more then I will ever know.We just celebrated Pascha.When Jesus rose from the dead we gained access to paradise. One of the biggies. The God you speak of is a triune God, Father ,Son & Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is who you should focus on. You post way too much here for it to be a coincidence. Given that you are Bosnian maybe one of your ancestors were Christian and they are intercessing for you now. I think the Holy Spirit is guiding you to Christianity. Find yourself a good Holy Monk to study the Scriptures under. How will you know a good Holy Monk? He won't bash Isalm but he will lay before you the bountiful treasures of our inheritance given to us by Jesus. On another thread you offered a prayer for the Vicar of Christ. That is most pleasing to Jesus & his Mother. You've gotten their attention & They have you in their sights.

Just counting the days 'til Abdur
puts on Christ through Baptism


Nicky's Baba

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maximus:
[QB]

This is almost as funny as a Mexican Muslim LOL!!! -- Military Intellegince, Mexican Muslims - isn't this an oxymoron?

www.latinmuslims.com/photoindexes/mexico.html [latinmuslims.com]

www.ncmonline.com/content/ncm/2001/nov/1119mexmuslim.html [ncmonline.com]

www.latinmuslims.com/news/letter7-29-99.html [latinmuslims.com]

www.latinmuslims.com/history/cuba.html [latinmuslims.com]

www.latinmuslims.com/history/spanish_ummah.html [latinmuslims.com]

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

That's the point Abdur, I am aware there are Mexican Muslims - actually I just became aware of this not to long ago, I believe the Chicago Tribune had a big article on Mexican Muslims, a tiny minority I might add, but apperantly they do exist - just as I am aware there is arm of the military designated as military intellegince. Both rather absurd concepts in my mind. But I suppose if the Mexicans of Mary can be Muslims then the Tibetans can be Mormons.

I know you probably take this issue of Muslim Mexicans seriously Abdur and can't appreciate the humor I derive from finding Muslims in the Mexican race, but I can't help it, it just tickles me to death. Never thought I would see the day I might as well die now for I lived to witness it all

But you are forgetting that Muslims ruled Spain for almost 700 years and even after Islamic practice in Spain was suppressed by the Inquisition, many Spaniards remained crypto-Muslims for generations.

Some of these crypto-Muslims did find their way to the New World.The same is true of the Spanish Jews.

So, there is a precedent for Hispanic Islam. It is not as exotic as one might think.

Mexican Muslims consider themselves reverts--as opposed to perverts --who are returning to their ancestral faith or, the faith that Muslims believe is the original faith of all of humanity---Islam.

I am glad you get a laugh out of the concept but, as you can see, the joke is on you.

BTW: Muslims have a very high regard for Mary and a much higher regard for her than most Protestants do.

Mexican Muslims are still the children and people of Mary, as are all Muslims.

La ghalab illa 'illah.

There is no conqueror but Allah.

Salaam,

Abdur

Ole to Allah!

www.africana.com/DailyArticles/index_19991101.htm [africana.com]

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Robert!

There you go again, spreading rumors about The Orthodox Infomation center without any documentation, quotes or links to back it up.

Exactely, what "crazy" articles do you find there, where does it say that we're not supposed to watch tv???

If you can't back up your opinions with documentation, then maybe you should keep them to yourself...

Hey, ya'll. Let's watch the snipes about military intelligence; I've got friends here who work for the Defense Intelligence Agency at the Pentagon. And I know that they're very smart people -- they're OCA!! [Now, for military music, that's another question.....!!!]

Christ is Risen!!!

Try to be understanding of those who find Latin rite Catholics in their midst. In a sense they are "refugees" of sorts. As we all know there is a crisis in the Latin church at present which is widespread and has led to many holding liberal theological and liturgical ideas. Many Catholics may face a situation where they can find no Latin parish around where they feel they can get the spiritual sustenance they need, and so they turn to Eastern Catholic parishes. But how can anyone be blamed if, upon finding an an alternative in their own (in this case Western) tradition, which now can provide them that sustenance that they need, they should return to their own rite?

The desire to worship according to one's own traditions and spiritual inheritance is certainly present on this message board so it ought to be understandable. This is all that those of the Latin West also want. Like the East, the West has a venerable tradition and spirituality. (I think we too often see these traditions as in opposition as opposed to being complimentary). I have friends who attended a conservative Latin rite parish for years, but then a Maronite church was established, and they, being Lebanese, immediately moved their attendance to that parish. For myself, I see this not as a problem, or of divided loyalties because it is all part of the Catholic Church. Also, if he finds within that venerable tradition that which fulfills him most, why would it irritate me? Likewise, if a Latin Catholic should find a permanent home within the venerable Byzantine tradition, again, I should see no problem with this -- nor vice versa.

The Latin Catholic who wishes to remain true to his spiritual roots and inheritance has a great cross to bear right now. Many local Latin rite parishes are mediocre at best and many Tridentine indults can be mediocre as well for other reasons (mainly due to limitations either imposed or inherent to a mission type of situation).

There are positive situations as well, such as parishes where the full out Tridentine liturgy is performed and where the fullness of that tradition may be experienced. Likewise are there parishes where the current Roman liturgy is used, but in a traditional manner and by priests who are solid and steadfast and who teach unadulterated Catholicism. One also sees a newer generation of younger priests (and laity based movements) who are moving against the more liberal trends in deference to classical Latin Catholicism.

I can understand the pain felt by some Western Roman Rite Catholics who lament the loss of their traditional liturgical patrimony.

At the same time, I am not comfortable with the idea that these disenfranchised people "come East" because we are also canonical and represent a sorta-kinda traditional churchiness. We are a real Church; we are as Apostolic as Rome and the other ancient partriarchal Sees. But, we aren't a homeless shelter for those who have lost their home. We are more than welcoming for those who are desperate and in need of shelter; BUT, we aren't a permanent home. And those who want to consider the East a new family shelter are just deluding themselves.

It's like the 'tough-love' that the social workers demand of their clients. Get one's own life in order and fight to make a comfortable place of one's own. Don't assume that taking up residence in someone else's home is going to solve the problems. It won't. Eastern Christians in communion with Rome are not "Catholics" in that sense; we are a community with our own realities and lifestyles and relationships. Western Catholics are more than welcome at any time; but, sorry to say this, but one is not yet married into the community. When there is a total commitment to our family, then that's another question; but in the interim, Western Christians are guests in Eastern Catholic communities (and that is real "community/family") and they should keep that perspective.

Christos Voskres! Christ is Risen!!

Fopr those interested in the Mex Muslims:

There's always been a muslim presence in Chiapas, there are 2000 gypsies there and they are muslims. There are two different communities there (besides the gypsies): the Murabitum (they're a very dangerous fundamentalist sect from Spain)and those who follow the line of the Muslim Centre (they think they're more wahaboite than the saudis!! ha ha...). The Mufti of Chiapas is Ibrahim Ahmedovic (sounds like Bosniac...)

There are Mexicans in Europe, believe me (Amsterdam, london and even Bucuresti!)

I haven't be able to atend a traditionalist latin catholic liturgy, but I'll try to go. Although Bishops were asked to be "generous" with the indult, in most of the cases they are not: here in my town, the Latin mass is celebrated the second sunday of the month... in a store that sales washing machines and refrigeration (they
were forced to do that because before, latin masses were not permitted by the government).

I'm sure that all the liturgical traditions have their good points, the Church is always the church!

See you later

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Remie:
[QB]Fopr those interested in the Mex Muslims:

The Mufti of Chiapas is Ibrahim Ahmedovic (sounds like Bosniac...)

Certainly does.

Wahhabis? No thank you, if you please!

There are two things I never want to be:

1-An orthodox Muslim

and................

2-an orthodox Christian ( Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant ),

....since both are predicated on hate.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

Christianity is predicated on Christ. You confuse our short comings & failure to live our faith with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never preached hate. Since you didn't respond to my post that tells me I've may touch on something concerning your many posts on a Christian forum. I'll finish later. I have to go to vespers & Divine Liturgy now.

Nicky's Baba

I'm sorry I didn't respond to your post, which was so sincere that I was actually taken aback by it. I just didn't know how to respond and I was at a loss for words---something really rare for me.

I hope you understand, but I have an eighty-four year old mother to spoil rotten and care for and a long family history to preserve. She expects it of me and I can't betray her.

You really love your faith and, even more importantly, you have trust in your faith. You are a rare and wonderfully committed person. Rare indeed, in this cynical and hypocritical world.

I hope you become--in your own way--an evangelist. Many need what you have to offer and it is the beautiful people, like you, who rescue lost souls from the abyss of hell.

I bow to you in respect, dear Baba.

Salaam,

Abdur

Please restrict posts in this thread to the topic of converts and the Church.

Thank you.

Abdur,

Thank You. Hopefully this won't be viewed as going off topic.

Nicky's Baba

First off, it is spelled BABA, not BUBBA or BABBA. Those spellings either refer to "a good'ol boy from the south" or a middle eastern resataurant as in "ALI BABBA".

I think a lot of converts to Eastern Christianity, wether Uniate or Orthodox, always seem to miss the point about joing a Particular Church. Why do so many converts try to join a church without trying to understand that Particular Church tradition, liturgically, historically and yes ethnically. I'm a craddle Byzantine Catholic whose mother was from a very traditional, Pre-Vatican II Italian Roman Catholic backround, and while my home parish always had these "new converts" via intermarriage with Roman Catholics, the local church customs (i.e. Rusyn Byzantine Catholic traditions) were always first and foremost. Our parish has a lot of childern of these "mixed marriages" but we all knew that this was an immigrant Rusyn Church and a tribute to the many sacrifices made by our Rusyn Baba's and Dido's so it's THERE church first. I was always in awe of our pioneering Rusyn immigrant founders and while other childern of these "mixed marriages" may have left their ancestral church because they never learned to apprieciate what trials and tribulations their Baba's and Dido's had to endure not only in building these churches but keeping them open (i.e. Celibacy Court Cases of the 1930's) I could never disrepect their lives by
being apathetic becuase it seems it is no longer cool or hip to be a member of an ethnic church. I feel sad for these people because there will never be such God-fearing and God-believing parishioners as those Baba's and Dido's. So I hope any new converts will take the time to study all the traditions of what ever Eastern Christian Church they decide to join, and not have the attitude that these "dumb ethnic people" don't know what their church is or should be.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

Ung-Certez