www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Converts & Their effect on the Church

I am happy to here about all your wonderful experiences with converts and converting to the Eastern Church in general.

I have recently been thinking about rejoining the Catholic Church as a Byzantine rite Catholic! I am trying to see if I can just return to the Church trhough the Byzantine rite since Im already Russian Orthodox. It dosnt sound fair if I have to resubmit to the Latin rite and go through all that process of rite transfers and paper work when I am already a member (Although through schism) Of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I have contacted a priest who knows a bishop and mabye theyll be able to get me into the Byzantine rite through the back door or something. I hope, but if Rome wishes me to become a Latin again, then what can I say or do but submit. It just dosnt sound fair though that I would have to become a Latin again in order to become Byzantine. Surly Go will help me to re enter the fold of Peter through the East?

So please pray for meas I attempt to find some way to cross the Tiber without drowning.

Robert K.

OK! Robert, you are on the prayer list.

May the Lord find you a good swimming coach, so you may safely cross the river.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Robert K.,

I know you'll find this difficult to believe, but I've strongly suspected this all along .

Why don't you tell your bishop you wish to be "Orthodox in union with Rome" and leave it at that?

Hurry back, Servant of Christ, hurry back!

Alex

Dear Robert K.:

Likewise, I am extremely elated that you have decided to "return" to Rome or, as we "Papists" love to say, to "pope," although apparently you prefer to be with our Byzantine Catholic brethren and not with us Latins anymore.

But it would not be worth my salt as a Roman Catholic if I did not try to "convince" you to return to our Latin fold. ( :p Alex)

Your posts really did you in: they were/are more Catholic than mine and those of many here in this Forum.

You must have spent some time studying your situation and please correct me if I am wrong: As a "former" Roman Catholic, all you need to do to revert to the Latin Rite (even from being a Russian Orthodox because the Catholic Church regards all Orthodox as "sisters" in the Faith) is simply a recitation of our Profession of Faith before your RC parish priest.

Of course, if you really want to be Eastern Catholic the Latin Bishop-to-Eastern Catholic Bishop "rite transfer rule" governs and that's where the paper chase comes in (from 1 to 3 months?).

I am unsure whether this simple recitation of our Profession of Faith is allowed in/by the Eastern Catholic Churches if you are reverting directly as a Russian Orthodox.

Again, many thanks and welcome!!!

Dear Robert,

As Amado says, you can return by reciting the Creed.

Just don't forget to leave the Filioque out!

And, Amado, my friend, excuse me, there is no one here who honours the Pope more than me.

It's easy for you Latins, since he is your Patriarch anyway.

But for someone like me, well, such loyalty costs me something which is what makes it all the better!

Alex

Dear Alex:

I know, I know! That's why I am constantly amazed(and feeling jealous) by your uninhibited adoration of Pope John Paul II.

The Holy Father being the first Slavic Pope in the Catholic Church's 2,000-year history and being the first non-Italian in more than 400 years might have something to with this.

And with all his titles and prerogatives, especially as the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church and as the "Super Patriarch" of Worldwide Christianity, he is a "monarch", and an "Imperial Monarch" at that!

It fits nicely in your personal choice of a system of governance.

Thank you all for your support and love. I guess that Ill have to swallow my Eastern pride and become a Latin again for a time in order to be Byzantine eventually.

I was wondering however if it is possible to be recieved into the Catholic Church by a Byzantine rite priest even though I would still be technically returning to the Roman rite?

So far, I have not actually returned to the fold yet but am waiting for a reply on what exactly I should do from a Basilian priest whom I have written to regarding my situation.

Any suggestions? Should I run to the nearest Catholic Church and get it over with or wait for the Basilian (Whom I presume will be helping me with the transfer since I formerly atttended his parish for awhile)?

Robert K.

Dear Robert,

I might wait for what the Basilian Priest would say.

You never know what they'll do next .

But do what is most comfortable for you.

The longer you stay out of the Catholic Church, the more you might reconsider . . .

God bless you, Servant of Christ, and welcome back!

Alex

Dear Amado,

Yes, I think His Holiness' Slavic background might have something to do with that after all . . .

Certainly the Imperial tradition of Byzantium is not only of secular interest, but also ecclesial interest since so much of that tradition permeates our Church's history, liturgy etc.

That the Pope is the first Patriarch universally is something that even Protestant theologians can come to agree on.

It's the obedience thing that gives people some difficulty . . .

Viva Il Papa!

Magandang Omaga! Mabuhay Ang-Fiipinas!

Alex

Yes, it has been a hard decision for me and on et that I have been debating personally for the last few months. It all began back in February when I was scanning the archives of a certain Orthodox forum known for its intolerant attitudes. I came across the post of a certain man who, being a Maronite, was attempting to defend the Catholic Church from the bigoted opinions of many of the list members. I read them with great interest and saw that, no matter how much the other posters tried to knock down his arguments regarding the Papcy and the dignity of the Eastern rites, they where unable to. He was finally thrown off the list by the moderater who accused him of rudness and actually stated that this mans comments were leading people astray.

Dear Robert,

Funny you should say that.

A number of Orthodox converts to Catholicism I know have also come from traditions that have nothing good or ecumenical to say about Catholic teaching etc.

It is almost as if the more vituperant their tradition gets, the more they are driven to examine Catholicism and find haven in it.

I've had the opportunity to share Catholic literature with Russian Orthodox visitors from Russia to Canada who insisted on asking for materials about the Pope, Catholic teaching etc.

When I asked them why they wanted it since they were Sister Churches etc. , one of them told me their attitude is that anything that gets attacked by the Russian papers or Church is often of great interest by and obtains great sympathy from Russians.

So, grudgingly , I gave them the literature they asked for.

I later helped them into union with Rome, much as I hate to admit it .

(Am I too funny or what?)

Alex

This man truly touched me deeply with his critique of Orthodoxy and that has caused me to evaluate everything I had previously thought about the Catholic Church.

I realized that the real reason I had fleed was the love of the Eastern Church traditions and spirituality in general. The Orthodox tried to convince me that the Eastern Cathoilics where just Latins who used Orthodox rituals. Now I knew that this slander was completely untrue from the onset but I was so stubborn in my zeal to leave our Holy Mother Church that I deliberatly consented these false and derogatory views.

Now that I reflect on it, I realize that I had always believed in the Ppapal primacy and dearly cherished it as the most necesary institution in our Catholic Church. One cannot fight against revealed truth and I am certainly sick and tired of doing it. Of course, many of my Orthodox friends and churchgoers will now claim that I have "apostisized" from them and reject me like a plague. I loose all them and all that I have ever built up for myself in Orthodoxy by leaving it but, believe me, I will gladely do all this and more for the blessed Catholic faith.

Perhaps this is why I get so angry at those who talk of the Eastern rites returning to Orthodoxy. I will be the first to reply to anyone propagating this view that, having been to Orthodoxy and back, communion with Rome is the only safe and sane answer to those seeking to be truly Catholic.

I thank that man who had the courage to evangelize and yes, proselytize the Catholic faith on an Orthodox list. If it wasnt for him I would never have even considered (At this time) Becoming Catholic again. He rolled the snowball fo me and sent it down the hill for me, and I am happy for it truly.

Robert K.

Good for you Alex! It is ou duty as good Catholics to share the faith with anyone who wants to learn it.

Mabye these people will help to make more converts and more and more untile the whole of Russia is converted to the most blessed and immaculate heart of our Lady of Fatima.

Share the Catholic Eastern faith with anyone you can. This is not necessary proselytism since in the name of ecumenism we are called to discuse our religion with those outside of it. If they convert by cance then we have accomplished the true reason for ecumenism, to lead others to the Catholic Church (Rome may not always say this but I just know this is what she has up her sleave)!

Robert K.

PS. Please excuse a lot of my fire breathing preaching about the Catholic faith (Reverts are worse then converts with this from what I hear).

Alex: You know I love you and normally am inspired by your well-versed posts, but I just have to take exception with one point. I hope you will forgive me for disagreeing, but my opinion on this is strong. I hope that I will not get into "too much trouble" with those who differ in their outlook. This may not be on the topic of "converts" directly, but western rites have been discussed on this tread and some converts to Orthodoxy have embraced what I am going to mention.

There has been much "resurrecting" of archaic, long expired rites in the Western Orthodox movement, some more legitimate or at least plausible than others. Besides the western rite within the Antiochian Archdiocese, we all know that there exist so many of these "vagante" as you say, groups whose complete "modus operandi" seems to be to preserve these rites that have long been extinct. Often, they also preserve a "hyper-Orthodox" or isolationist mentality, thinking that all others who do not adhere to their stringent brand of Orthodoxy are headed straight for hell.

Now, we all can agree that in many places, the Roman Church may have deliberately and wrongly imposed the Roman Rite on churches in the west that had their own, indigenous ritual traditions. We all know that the Sarum, Celtic and so many other western rites were the local variation of a particular culture that later became supplanted by the larger and more powerful Roman Rite. This should never have occurred and it is a shame that these rites were lost in time.

But, and this is my complaint: in order for liturgy to be authentic and to serve its ecclesial purpose, it must be the "living" expression of faith, of a people alive today, existing and functioning in our own time. Liturgy as a "work of the people" must be able to relate, express and offer up to Almighty God, the living faith and emotions of those celebrating it.

To "resurrect" extinct ritual traditions simply because one feels that contemporary, alive and "in use" liturgies are not "Orthodox enough" or in order to give credence to the existence of a certain group or jurisdiction is to me, just all wrong. Some of the western rites have not been in use for hundreds and hundreds of years. They cannot simply "reappear" out of the blue, and become accepted as legitimate forms of Orthodoxy. A "rite" must be all that it implies, a complete theological, spiritual, liturgical and canonical expression of Christianity and, while this may have been so at one time of these rites, they simply are not any longer.

In my opinion, if Orthodoxy wants to minister to Christians of a western origin, then it must offer them a liturgy that is alive and meaningful to the masses (no pun there) today. I see no problem with a western Orthodox branch that uses either the Mass of Pope Paul VI, Book of Common Prayer liturgy, etc, and even the Tridentine Rite, because these have all been or still are, living liturgies within memory. There are still people who remember and or currently adhere to them. They are close enough to our historical times to be considered really liturgies of our day. Agreeably, sometimes minor changes can be made to ensure the "orthodoxy" of certain liturgies, such as the use of the epiclesis and other matters.

The church cannot serve as a "museum piece" of Christianity or to preserve, against all odds, certain eras of history that are no more. The church rather, is a community of living disciples, and the liturgy is meant to be an expression of the faith and "experience" of that community, not simply a memory from the past. If we want to preserve knowledge of rites now extinct, we can do so in a library or museum, but not in a parish church.

Granted, some of the "churches" that promote these defunct rites really have no reason to exist other than to preserve at all odds, these dead traditions. Of course, not all of these kinds of churches are a joke or have ill intentions and I'm the first one to believe that this is the US (or Canada or any other democratic nation) and people must be allowed to execute their free will when it comes to religion. I would never suggest that churches of dead rites not be legally allowed to function. But, there comes a time when credibility is an issue and also, the good of the faithful and the good sense of the church must be placed above personal likes and dislikes and whims, and a certain amount of decorum and the credible image for the church must be maintained.

I have often been one of those Eastern Christians who see no place for western rites in the Eastern Church. My feelings on this have tempered over the years and I do see that it can be prudent and beneficial to some faithful, to worship in this style. As Robert K (I believe) said in a recent post, Eastern Christianity is a "hard sell" to Western people. It is simply not in their cultural ethos and thus, cannot appeal to most of them. Yes, some can and will fall in love with the East and its richness in every way, but for the average American or Canadian or Western European person, it is simply not in their realm of experience, to be attracted to much of our customs and ways of expressing our faith. That's ok and completely understandable. Therefore, there can well be ways for the Orthodox Church to minister to people of western backgrounds, who are seeking a more complete experience of Christian dogma, liturgy and faith. Therefore, a western rite can well serve these people's needs. I refer to the Orthodox Church because in the Eastern Catholic Churches, a western rite would be redundant and not possible at all.

But, lets do justice to the liturgy, of whatever tradition, and also be sensitive to the overall image of the church at large, and realize that if we're going to have the western rite, let it be something that is alive and not merely an object of historical sentimentality or museum styled preservation. That can be done through historical societies and academic works, not during the worship of the community, that has to allow for the working of the Holy Spirit to guide us and lead us along the roads we walk today.

To me, resurrecting long extinct rites does not serve either the church or the people in it, but simply tries to recreate a time and place that has passed from living reality to historical fact, and in some instances, to give credence for the existence of this or that jurisdiction. Forgive my strong feelings on this, but in my mind, I am looking to the best of both church and people, and also, the message that we want to teach people about the function of the liturgy and worship. I pray that you will be able to see where I am coming from, agreeing or disagreeing with my point of view. God bless you all.

Fr. Joe

Robert:

Congratulations on your decision to return to the Catholic Church and may God guide you in the process of uniting to our Greek Catholic Church. I have always been pleased with the way that you have come to love our traditions, both spiritual and cultural.

Many blessings to you on your return trip.

Fr. Joe