www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Converts & Their effect on the Church

Dear Altar Boy,

If you would be so kind as to email me this file, I would really love to read it. My address is in my profile.

To answer some questions if I may.

To believe in the Papacy and its role in the universal Church, as I have stated in previous post, simply makes more sense in my mind then the ecclesiology that is propagated by Orthodoxy. The Orthodox system believes the Church should be divided into local self governing Churches (Whether this is on a national or reginal concept is still not exactly made clear) and that each local Church governs its own affairs yet is still united to its sisters by having the same profession of faith. However, this idea of Church governance has many problems (To which Orthodox themselves are at many times open to admit). For one thing it is extremely hard, if not impossible, for the Church universal in Orthodoxy to come to a verdict on any one of the numerous issues that comes up through the centuries that must be addressed.

Now this is not to knock Orthodoxy itself and its wonderful spirituality and traditions. As the Holy Father has repeatedly said, the east has much to offer the west about these things to which the former has almost forgotten in many cases. Yet, this idea is also a two way street. For while the east has preserved the mystical convept of Christian theology, it is the west that is the far better organized and these organizational skills are what Orthodoxy needs to make it truly complete and relevant for todays world.

So you see, belief in the Papacy is more for me about the true fulfillment of Christ promise, not only for true unity but also that the gates of Hell will not prevail against his Church.

Just look at how respected and feared the Catholic Church is by the whole world, just as Our Lord was when he walked the earth 2000 years ago. No other religious institution can convey such power and hatred by men at the same time as can this Church. What person other then the Pope can travel to every country on the planet and preach a message that carries such impact and be listened to.

Yes, Orthodoxy has preserved much of the Church of the first millinium, but by itself, what relevance does a GOOD DEAL OF THIS WEALTH HAVE FOR THE MODERN WORLD. When the Orthodox want to formulate as statement on any modern moral issue, they always go looking towards the Vatican for a clear word. THis is how it was in the first millinium as well. THere are many writtings by the fathers, even a canon from one of the early councils that affirms both Romes primacy and supremacy in the Church. THe east has always looked to Rome for a clear word on doctrinal issues at that time as she still does today and always will because by herslef she does not have the power to act in a unanimus and conscise way on these things.

Unity is the key to understanding the Papacy. Where is the authority and leadership of the Church? Who has the power to speak for Christ on earth and can exercise that pwer in a way that everyone listens to it? THe Orthodox try but fail because theylack the organization and authority to do so. But Rome can because she truly has the power that Christ granted her and she has always had that power.

Indeed, a person can study the fathers and ancient Church history all that want to determine where that Church is. But for a common person who has no basic knowledge of such things as theology and patristics, all they need to do is look out into thr world and see who is speaking and who is listening. It is the Catholic Church that speaks and it is the world that listens. Indeed we in the world may not alays obey, but believe me, we listen! No other Church has that power and can command that authority.

Robert K.

Yes, I tried to be Orthodox in my heart but only be supressing the truth of the CAtholic Church to which I had always known in my heart.

My journey to Orthodoxy was not however my first abandonment of our religion. When I was 17, I got caught up in the evangelical movement and became a Baptist for about 4 months. Then after that I wanted something Catholic but didnt want to go back to Rome so I became an Episcopalian for about 5 months, then I finally went back to Rome and got involved with the Byzantine rite but again I left to become Orthodox. It seems that as much in my life that I have tried to run away from the Catholic faith, I have always come full circle back to it.

Im in my early twenties now and believe me, Ive been burned out by searching and experimenting with religion. I just cant supresse the truth that I know in my heart, that I had the true religion all along.

Robert K.

Robert K.

God bless you in your journey, wherever it takes you. May I offer one idea for your consideration during the next few years? When you are in your early 20's you tend to see everything as black and white. Something is either totally correct or totally incorrect. The teaching of a particular Church is either totally true or totally false. Resist this temptation, open your mind and prayerfully allow the Lord to lead you into understanding. Among other things you will learn that the Catholic Church is far from perfect. So, too, is the Orthodox Church far from perfect. The West desperately needs what the East has to offer. The East, in turn, needs what the West has to offer. Even raising this question causes apoplexy to the midnight apologists in either Church. Do not judge the best of the theology of one Church against the worst of theology of the other.

Since you are now currently very pro-Catholic use the words and wisdom of Pope John Paul II as your measuring stick. He has clearly stated that there is very little lacking between Rome and Orthodoxy. He has also made clear that even "schism" is too strong a word to describe the separation. If he has taught this, heed this. Strive to look at the Church through his experienced eyes.

Administrator

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Abdur Islamovic:
[QB]Robert K and SR,

The assumption that the Orthodox sources Catholics guote in an effort to prove certain papal positions could very well do just the opposite since there seems to be an a priori assumption that these Orthodox sources clearly understood papal infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc., through the prism of the 19th century, which is obviously a logical impossibility.

Abdur
A few points:

I believe it is St.Athanisius who must be credited with preserving orthodoxy, and not the pope of that time.

Isn't it true that a pope of Rome was deposed and excommunicated, by an Eastern Council, for heresy?

The Orthodox approach to comprehending the the issue of the papacy is different from that of the West--Catholic or Protestant.

The Orthodox--being of the East--look for consensus and eschew the "chapter and verse" methodology of Protestants and Catholics.

In other words, the Greek way is to dig into all of history--not limiting oneself to this century and that century--in order to divine the broad consensus of belief and practice during--at least--the first millenium of the Christian faith.

The Orthodox--I believe--are pre-disposed to culling from the facts the consensus of the community of the faithful, and not just relying on the perspective of individual and isolated saints and fathers, or even individual councils, to come to a general conclusion. The Orthodox approach is clearly logical.

Now, if only Orthodox fundamentalists would...just a little friendly ribbing.

Abdur

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Robert,

"Just look at how respected and feared the Catholic Church is by the whole world, just as Our Lord was when he walked the earth 2000 years ago."

Don't you see what is wrong with this statement?
When "the world" "respects" us, then we are doing something seriously wrong!

Jesus wasn't "respected", He was hated!
And He said "...and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." (St.Matthew 24,9)

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." (St.John 15,18)

The Catholic Church is both respected and feared at the same time, especially by her enemies.

Should the Church be an irrelevant and insignificant body that has no voice in the world and can only retreat into the darkness?

Having a voice is important. Christ had a voice and, believe me, people listened! What insititution in the modern world every had a voice that is as listened to as the Catholic Church? Do you think that God would waste his time redeeming humanity as he had done if he knew that the bearers of this message would be completely irrelevant to the world outside of a few middle eastern and slavic countries?

Just a thought.

Robert K.

Someone said that reverts can be worse than converts...Just might be true...I'm both a convert and a revert, so I must be doubly infected!

On another note. I would agree with SR that Steve Ray's book _Upon this Rock_ is pretty good. However, I like the book: _Documents Illustrating Papal Authority_, edited by E. Giles. It was published by SPCK in London in 1952. Giles was Anglican. It presents both strains of thought that one can find in Church history on the papacy: both negative and positive. I've been reproducing Giles' section on Pope St Leo on my website (a work still in progress):

http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/giles.html

One of the best books I have found is that by S. Herbert Scott entitled _The Eastern Churches and the Papacy_. It was published by Sheed and Ward in 1928 and is out of print. I only have it in photocopy form but I was able to obtain it via inter-library loan. The book was a dissertation approved for a Research Doctorate Degree in the University of Oxford and does have some passages in Latin, Greek, and French. Having said that, there is still much valuable information in it that is not as readily available elsewhere.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

The majority of Catholics do not listen to what the Catholic Church has to say, let alone Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, etc.

Certainly, all rational persons realize that 2/3 of the world population is non-Christian and the majority of people would not consider Christianity relevant to their daily lives.

Sad to say, but the majority of Europeans and Americans are simply indifferent to the Gospel, for Mammon is their true deity.

Most people, in most regions of our common planet, worship the god known as Survival and His Consort, Mammon.

I guess when you live in Kansas, that is almost impossible to believe.

Abdur

Mor Ephram --

Brother, I went over to your profile and for the life of me could not find your Email addy.

Would you send it to me at

stannrlc@mindspring.com

and I will be glad to forward you the file. Just remember, it is just the foaming thoughts of a convert.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

PS. Let me know what format you want the file to be sent in and I will use my Corel Word Perfect to convert it.

Abdur --

You said:

"Sad to say, but the majority of Europeans and Americans are simply indifferent to the Gospel, for Mammon is their true deity"

I am beginning to develope a deep respect for your keen insights, said factually and without rancor.

Sadly true, sir, sadly true.

Brother Ed the Altar Boy

Christ is Risen!

This is a wonderful thread, I think some of the insights on the first pages, and some of the observations about Church are some of the most important and "best said" since the crash and re-birth of this forum.

I would hate to stop this conversation, but I find long threads (those that go beyond 100) difficult to manage, and I think for most, it is too much to follow.

Perhaps it is the right time to let this thread end before it becomes too "all-encompassing"? And perhaps some of the important ideas and thoughts that need to be discussed further, can become new titles and threads of their own?

Thanks!

Elias, monk