www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are we really in Communion?

Dear Harmon3110,

You also stated that Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics both follow the Pope. (I assume that's the Pope of Rome ) At least I understood your statement to mean that both parties follow the Pope. I do not personally have much respect for the last several Popes of Rome. Pope John Paul I may be an exception however. I have yet to really investigate the issue, but it is very possible that he was about to right some wrongs within the Church and was therefore murdered. May his Memory be Eternal! Anyways, it seems to me that whenever the recent Popes of Rome have told the Church to do something, the American "Roman Catholic Church" has not always followed the Pope of Rome. For example, the Pope of Rome in recent years declared that All Chalices must be of "Noble" materials and MUST be gold lined. I'm pretty sure that at least some American Churches continue to use Glass or Clay Vessels to hold the Lord . My point is that, even the "Roman Caholic Church" doesn't neccesarily follow the Pope of Rome. I don't neccesarily mean to delve into the iniquities within the "Roman Catholic Church" here, I'm merely trying to ascertain whether or not the Byzantine Catholic Churches are TRULY in FULL Communion with the "Roman Catholic Church."

Dear Rilian,

You stated,
"What I�m saying is I think the only answer you would get back is �yes, they are in communion� on all of things you�re talking about because they share the Eucharist."

Unfortunately you must remember that in a Catholic Church, we share the Eucharist with anyone that gets in line. I, unfortunately once saw someone that I knew to be Protestant receive the Eucharist in a "Roman Catholic Church" if I remember correctly the Eucahrist was given to her by a lay person. Protestant Churches will share their pretend "Eucharist" with anyone. (At least many will share with anyone.) As the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Protestant Church are not in FULL Communion with eachother, sharing the Eucharist (Or Communion) with members of either Church doesn't neccesarily mean that two Churches are in FULL Communion.

I believe that not to long ago the decision was made for Catholic Churches to give Communion to Orthodox Christians (Not in Communion with, or Under Rome) with the resoning that Orthodox Christians are Full fledged Christians and share ALL of the Sacrements (or rather Holy Mysteries)with the Roman Catholic Faith, and have valid Priests, etc. (Also because receiving Communion is necessary for good spiritual health) Whereas, the Orthodox Churches will deny the Eucharist to anyone that is not Orthodox (Or has not properly prepared) because the person being denied Communion is not in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

I think that UGCC is in communion with a Catholic church, because she accepts all catholic doctrine. Recently I have read statements of Card. Husar in a book of Fr Babiak, where he said that our union is only symbolic and we don't have submission to the Roman Pontiff... or similar. Its a shamefull statement of the Prince of the Church... Why JPII gave him cardinal's hatt?

Dear Ivasyk,

If you like being a "rab" of Rome, that is fine!

The Latin Catholic Church - when was it a friend to Ukraine in history? Do you know Ukrainian Church history?

Do you know the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy? I mean "really" and not on the basis of anti-Orthodox propaganda?

If you want to be so Catholic, why don't you just join the RC Church in Poland and leave the UGCC alone?

Patriarch Joseph (and I met him several times myself) was for a Patriarchate and for the SAME ideals as Patriarch Lubomyr.

I can't believe that you call yourself a "Ukrainian Catholic."

When Patriarch Lubomyr received the Cardinal's hat and ring, he put the ring into his pocket.

What is the big deal with being a Cardinal?

You are truly a "servant of Rome." Go to the Roman Catholic Church - but I think they might find you too "papal" for them too.

Alex

Ivasyk Telesyk,

Fr. Babak of Stamford?

And also, I would trust Husar's view on our Union with Rome because after all, he is our Primate!!

Rome would not have approved him nor made him a Cardinal if he wasn't solid leadership wise, or weak on his relationship with God.

If you are in for submission to Rome, then submit yourself to the fact that they approved PAtriarch Lubomyr as our Ptimate!!!

-uc

Mr Telesyk

You have the grand total of 8 posts on Byzcath.

5 of them are on 1 thread
Great article on Husar

None of thes are complimentary about our Hierarch.

the other three posts are in similar vein.

Your Profile states your affiliation to be Since we are in the Great Fast at the moment , I would ask you to consider whether your posts have been made after due reflection and not in haste.

I do not find any of them to have been charitable in the slightest. It is not seemly to refer to any Clergy in the way that you have done so.

I have never in the time I have been a member of Byzcath been made to feel so irritated by any posts.

I would ask my fellow members to forgive me for posting in this way - but I can hold my tongue no longer

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

Yes, just let go of that tongue of yours for a moment . . . I never thought I would see you in such a state, Friend!

Do you see what happens when a Scot becomes a member of the UGCC?

You get a healthy dose of passion and strong emotion!

Usually, those of British background have to eat lots of curry or Italian spicy pasta to experience that!

NOW I know you really ARE one of us!

Welcome to our exciting world!

Ivasyku, you don't know what you have unleashed on yourself just now!

I won't communicate with you any more, Ivasyku, since you bring out the "zlist" in me.

And it is not nice, especially during the "Velykyj Pist."

I don't want to be more "Pist Off" than I already am . . .

So I bid you farewell.

I'm convinced the only sure way of getting the Administrator's attention here is by:

a) raising an issue of liturgical reform and

b) saying something to the effect that Ruthenians really ARE Ukrainians . . .

Ivasyku, do you believe that Carpatho-Rusyny are really Ukrainians?

Alex

Rome has done mistakes in history. The papacy, has just as many tragic and dreadful moments as it has beautiful and majestic. John Paul the Great apologised for the bad moments. I am Greek and I come from Minor Asia and probably some great-great-great-great grandfather or grandmother got abused by the Crusaders. Not only did I forgive the Catholic Church but I joined it 2 years later.

But if you think Orthodoxy has not commited crimes against Latins, Byzantine-rite Catholics and even its own people, than you need to read more history books, mate.

P.S: Being in Union with Rome, does not make us blind followers of Rome. I just feel secure that the Church is leaded by the Pope rather than the Eastern Patriarchs... That's just my opinion.

Karen,

I ask this in all respect, but are you saying that you place your style of worship before dogmata of your Faith?

When you say you'd go Orthodox before going to a Roman Catholic church, it seems to imply that you're willing to throw out beliefs required by all Catholics in order to keep your Eastern worship.

Is it possible you just don't believe in all the teachings of the Church in the first place? This, to me, would seem more logical than tossing what you believe to be true in order to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, etc.

Logos Teen

Ivasyk Telesyk,

Your posts not only this thread, but on other threads have been posted in an inflammatory way that has shown very little charity. Your posts on this forum have been perceived by posters on this forum as an attack on the Eastern Catholic Church. You are reminded that if you can not post in charity on this and any other threads in this forum you are to refrain from posting.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

The better question is , why is Cardinal Mahoney a cardinal. Good men aren't always appointed to be Cardinals, you just have to trust your faith and try and interpurt what Cardinal Husar says in the most positive way possible. Give him the benefit of the doubt so to speak.

Dear Brethren in Christ,

My $0.02 is that, in fact Patriarch Lubomyr should never have been made or accepted being made a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church. I feel that being a Cardinal diminishes his perceived/accepted authority. As we all no, he is Patriarch. Most everything I see written about him refers to him as a Cardinal. Greek Catholics have no business in Roman Catholic Hierarchy. Likewise, Roman Catholics have no business being part of Greek Catholic Hierarchy. He is a Patriarch. (Yes period) The Pope of Rome is the Prime Patriarch. The Pope of Rome is "First Among Equals." His Beattitude Lubomyr is a Patriarch in Communion with the Pope of Rome, not a Bishop below him in Roman Hierarchy.

Or, is he REALLY in full Communion with the Pope of Rome and the Roman Catholic Church?

Dear Teen of the Incarnate Logos,

You stated,
"Karen,

I ask this in all respect, but are you saying that you place your style of worship before dogmata of your Faith?

When you say you'd go Orthodox before going to a Roman Catholic church, it seems to imply that you're willing to throw out beliefs required by all Catholics in order to keep your Eastern worship.

Is it possible you just don't believe in all the teachings of the Church in the first place? This, to me, would seem more logical than tossing what you believe to be true in order to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, etc.

Logos Teen"

Since Orthodox means True Belief and True Worship, it is impossible to "place your style of worship before dogmata of your Faith?" Worship is the expression of your dogmata of Faith. If, for instance, you don't hold Holy Images as Sacred you could choose to not have any (Or very few) in your Temple. Or, if you don't hold the Traditional beliefs regarding the Divine Liturgy/Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, you may choose to remove/never install the "architectural dividing point" between Sanctuary and nave while the Priest faces the wrong direction.

What "required" teachings of the Church do you perceive Karen to not hold?

Hi LT!

Your post was indeed respectful, and you ask some relevant questions.

First, I would say that really believe that there are virtually no *doctrinal* differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, so I really don't feel like I'd be "throwing out" my current beliefs as a Catholic-- just approaching them a little differently.

Secondly, I would say that the differences between Roman Catholicism and Byzantine Rite Catholicism run much deeper than just differences in the liturgy we use... we are also worlds apart theologically and spiritually.

An example of this is what you just said about putting style of worship before dogmata of faith... in the East, this is a false dichotomy. Worship is the most important aspect of our faith, and we believe that the divine liturgy manifests and proclaims what we believe better than defined dogmas ever could. In other words, for an Eastern Christian, our beliefs and our liturgy can't be separated.

And as to your question re whether or not I already reject some of the Church's teachings, the answer is no... although I don't like the west's theological approach... e.g., too rationalistic. Imo, They have overdeveloped and overdefined the mysteries of our Faith, and personally, I just could not feel close to God in the Latin Rite.

I hope I explained myself clearly, and that you understand where I'm coming from a little better.

God bless,

Karen

Orthodox do not beleive in Papal infallibility correct? That is one major Dogma you would be abandoning just to retain your Eastern liturgy.