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Dear Father Elias, +EVLOGITE! I agree completely Father. I wear my cassock, belt, and monastic vest everywhere (even to my secular job working with single HIV/AIDS mothers)...and it is totally functional...and helps to uplife me and those around me. It is cold in winter and warm in summer, which is good---just a little necessary 'prick' for the flesh!

Kissing your holy right hand!

Your poor brother,
+Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

Reverend Fathers, BLESS!

My dear friend Fr. Elias - no disagreement at all - I've seen your habit - it IS a functional garment, meant to be worn and to survive use. The reason we resorted to stitchery was to provide our friend with something equally functional, so he could wear it everywhere too.

Hmmm. The best corollary I can come up with - please excuse the analogy - is that his original habit was made like a costume is made. It looks right, but it isn't made for real use once the play is over. There IS a difference in terms of durability, construction, and (really!) whether parts that matter for day-to-day use are actually there, or "faked." A very simple f'rinstance is that a costume will have visible "welts" but in the actual garment there will be a working pocket behind the welt.

Just tryin' to clarify - and don't you go badmouthin' the good, holy and hardworking monk who lives in your skin (and habit).

In Christ,

Sharon

Don't want to create a maelstrom, but I wanted to ask some questions and make some comments.

I wonder if there is not a caricature of consecrated life in the Western Church being built in some of the discussion here.

I, like Fr. Gregory, have talked with a few memebers of religious congregations, not monastics, who have felt, as his former provincial expressed it, lonely. They wanted someone to pray with and couldn't find members of their communities to join them. I know a superior who was asked what gave her the right to tell the younger sister who challenged her what to do!
When those kinds of things happen it is certainly reprehensible.

But I wonder if it is appropriate to jump from these examples to the conclusion that these are iconic of what constitutes consecrated life in the Western Church. Personally, I don't think so.
These are so startling to us simply because they are so clearly the exceptions.

The Code of Canon Law Part III, Section I, Title I puts clearly what, it seems to me, that monastics and others who have assumed a consecrated life in the Western Church aspire to:

"Life consecrated by the profession of the evangelical counsels is a stable form of living by which faithful, following Chirst more closely under the action of the Holy Spirit, are totally dedicated to God who is loved most of all, so that, having dedicated themselves to His honor, the upbuilding of the Church and the salvation of the world by a new and special title, they strive for the perfection of charity in service to the Kingdom of God and , having become an outstanding sign in the Church, they may foretell the heavenly glory." (Can. 573)

We, in the Western Church, are many times stereotyped, it seems to me, as being excessively rationalistic and legalistic. I guess it's our gift!

The code contains some of the best expressions of what we are and how we organize ourselves that I can find in any legal language. In the section of the code dealing with the "Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life" the guides for formation and governance to safeguard the religious and the community is clearly laid out.

It does not permit individual religious or monasteries, or congretations or societites to run amuck. It provides that each of the institutes be faithful to its charism and to its traditions. The clearest example of how serious the Church takes this was presented in the aftermath of the Second Vatican Council when all groups of persons who had professed the evangelical counsels were asked to re-examine their congregations, monasteries, and so forth.

They were to determine what was the particular charism of the community, usually the vision of the founder, to be sure that it is the focus of their lives. They were to examine their way of life to see what in it enabled the group to do the work that Jesus wants it to do as they see it. Much prayer, and time and effort went into that study.

The changes in habit came out of this process in some communities. It was a deliberate process. It was examined by our bishops and in the case of those which are of pontifical right, by the Vatican. The changes were examined. The changes were approved.

Our sisters and brothers are not, for the most part, wild eyed revolutionaries. They are, for the most part, wildly in love with Christ and attempt to share that love with the rest of us. They do this by living and working among us or by being monastics whose lives are images of how Church should work. They do it quietly and patiently and carefully in faith and hope and love.

Are there smaller numbers of religious? Yes. Are there some disruptive elements in religious life? Yes. Is relgious life in our Church going to hades in a hand cart? NO!

The Spirit is working with all of us and we are a work in progress. This is true of those of us who have professed the evangelical counsels whether they wear a habit or not.

I wonder if it's fair to construct an image of them that highlights the failings of some and makes those failings the model of what the life of those professed is about. Formation is imperfect, we're always being formed and re-formed. So are our religious.

They pray and work because they believe and love and hope. They work to serve Christ among us and in us. They try to show that we can all be more like Christ. They do it whether in habit or not.

Isn't that the real story of what the lives of the professed in the Western Church, and for that matter in the Eastern Churches, is about? Shouldn't that get at least equal billing?

Did it here?


Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve


An aside:
Each year the collection for retired religious draws in great amounts of money for their care from Roman Catholics. We give because we value their lives and their work and their example.

They embody what Can. 573 says that they are to be about amd we are grateful for them.


I do not have the time to edit now. Please accept my apologies for that.

Dear Inawe, +May the LORD bless you! I shall say once more, I really don't think 'THE HABIT' is the issue (at least of MY post)...my post tried to be broader and speak about the 'theology of the consecrated life.' It seems that most of you don't agree and that's fine (after all I am probably much older and maybe fron another generation? I enterd monastic life in 1965 after all). Maybe in the future I will just stick to the PRAYER section of this forum...and keep my other opinions to myself. I guess when all is said and done, we Orthodox and Catholics disagree on more than I thought...or at least that's the feeling I'm getting.

If I have offended anyone, I am sorry.

In Christ Jesus Our Lord,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

Right Reverend, and Father Archimandrite,

Christ is in our midst!

Rereading your initial post (with which I agree completely), and Stephen's post (which I also understand), I do not think anyone has given or taken offense. On the contrary, I always profit whenever the monastic life is a topic for discussion in this place.

Is it fair to say, that the 'penitential' element of (at least some western) religious life, has been neglected since the council? In the times of the 60s and 70s, when we were formed as religious, idealism and social optimism had taken first place.

The documentation which Stephen quotes, inspires deep dedication and prompts thoughts of the renewal of our way of life. The fact that we as religious fail to live up to the ideal could cause discouragement, and even disappointment.

The genius of the eastern approach (about which you Father are so eloquent) is that our failings in this wonderful way of life, do not cause discouragement, but confirm us in our commitment to do penance. Our faults and failings (even our sins), sadly, do not end the day we first put on the holy habit or even make our monastic profession. I recall the stories of the Holy Fathers of ancient times, who lived in great sanctity and even saw in the flesh the uncreated light. These blessed ones, on their deathbeds were still mourning their sins, and consumed with prayers for mercy and forgiveness.

In our day (are we not painfully aware), dressing casually, or even inappropriately, is the least of our sadnesses.

Who in our day, is living up to the ideals presented so clearly in the western legislation? And where are the blessed ones who are the living examples of the angelic life, such as I read in the monastic 'lives'?

You are so right, Father, and the life of penitence is our vocation, now more than ever. Let us pray for contemporary witnesses, and for the flourishing of this way of life in our Church.

Posted by Archimandrite Gregory:

"Dear Inawe, +May the LORD bless you! I shall say once more, I really don't think 'THE HABIT' is the issue (at least of MY post)...my post tried to be broader and speak about the 'theology of the consecrated life.' It seems that most of you don't agree and that's fine (after all I am probably much older and maybe fron another generation? I enterd monastic life in 1965 after all). Maybe in the future I will just stick to the PRAYER section of this forum...and keep my other opinions to myself. I guess when all is said and done, we Orthodox and Catholics disagree on more than I thought...or at least that's the feeling I'm getting. "


Dear Father Gregory,

I hope that I have not offended you in what I had to say; you have certainly not offended me in your comments. Like you I have tried to speak my truth with love. It saddens me that I have failed to make that clear.

It would be our loss if you were to limit your postings to the prayer forum, though we are certainly blessed by your service acting as comoderator with Fr. Elias. We are doubly blessed by your prayers offered there and elsewhere.

I am grateful for your service among us and for your prayers.

I look forward to hearing your opinions and your teaching. I hope to be able to share my questions and thoughts with you. Through such exchanges, may we find that we cherish and share most things in Christ's Churches. May the little that divides us be healed.

Please remember me in your prayers. I am a sinner, you know! (and there's no smilee there!)

Steve

In "Orientale Lumen -- The Light of the East" the Holy Father said that support be given to all those who feel called to help restore monastic life.

In Eastern Catholicism, the monastic garden has begun!!!! There are seedlings (here and there)who are trying to learn and live a monastic life. And everyone wants to tell the new seedlings what to do. I get it, too, mostly from our Western Catholics and Eastern Catholics, who are heavily Latinized.

On another thread there is talk about the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches. Title XII dealing with monastics and religious does NOT say anything about how to begin -- nothing. So we the little seedlings are using the history of monastic life as a guideline -- begin living a monastic life. Get as many permissions as one can from the appropriate hierarchical structure. A hermit/hermitess..... and then a few monastics in a skete... and then several and more in a monastery.

The Divine Praises (the Divine Office) and silent prayer and Divine Liturgy.... and learning about monastice customs as the Feast Days and Fasts come along. Study and spiritual reading. Trying to LIVE THE GOSPEL. Oh, yes, and wearing a habit, which is what this thread seems to be about. (I stay out of local discussions of the Roman Catholic sisters here and their lack of a habit - it's none of my business.)

"Contemplative, but not cloistered" is the most concise way to express it. I go to the grocery story myself. I go to the Post Office. I go to a few educational events in our town. I go to a few Roman Catholic and a few Orthodox events in our town. But mostly I'm in my hermitage and at my Byzantine Catholic Church.

Let us encourage one another to be holy. Let us pray for one another. Let us pray that more SEEDS become SEEDLINGS in our Eastern Catholic monastic garden. Spring is just around the corner!!!!!!

I seem to remember that what you say is true. Rome prefers, encourages, etc... the religious habit but does not mandate it because there are certain situations which it is not reasonable.

Give them and inch and they take - a mile.

Originally the nun habit (as well as brother) was a sign of separation from the world. And simplicity. One dressed even simpler while a novice and receiving the habit of the order was a solemn event - marriage to Christ. I believe some or all nuns wear or wore - a wedding ring also.

I am aware that the Dominican nuns around here wear simple habits (white and brown - belted with rosary).

I am also aware some other nuns around here do not (school teachers and social workers).


There are also cloistered nuns about 20 miles from here. A high wooden fence. Dominican also I believe. There is a wall that separates the nuns from the public even during mass - but you can hear them singing and see them through the opening when they receive communion.

I am not sure I would tsk tsk all nuns who do not wear a habit. (Not that you did any tsk'ing). Because, unlike the Orthodox Church, the Catholic church and religious are very involved with community services... schools, hospitals, drug rehabilitation, family counseling, food kitchens, marriage counseling, anti-abortion activities, abortion counseling, Big brother and big sister work, political awareness... the list is long.

(now addressing all - pull that soapbox on over here)

In many situations a habit is worn here in the East Coast (Catholic schools, Catholic hospitals, and most times the head nun involved in social work has a habit but the councilors do not. ) and in some instances where Catholic nuns work in secular settings company rules disallow religious dress because of �separation of church and state� type thing - so the nun has a choice - wear the habit and not be allowed to minister - or wear secular to abide by the rules and be able to minister to the needy.

There are all sides to the issue� and a blanket �all must wear the habit� does put clothing before ministry. And we all know clothing does not make anyone holy.

Here in my town, the Catholic Family Services runs and funds the only marriage counseling services around. No state or federal funds involved. Without the Catholic Church - there would be no Family Services or marriage counseling at all. The FS is run by Catholic laity (might be Third Order) but the councilors are not all Catholic - Protestants are involved also - and just plain social workers (graduates) also. The Service are open to all no matter what religion that are - and some consideration might be to be aware that there are some religious groups which consider the Catholic Church to be the seat of satan - and such as a Jehovah�s Witness - would go straight to hell for dealing with someone in Catholic religious habit.\

For any of us to say �Catholic religious across the board are slackers for not wearing the habit� is a bit naive I think. Some do (cloistered and those who work in an appropriate environment) and some don�t. We constantly run across them that do not (in secular settings of ministry) and seldom run into them that do. So we are more aware of them that do not. One is often surprised to learn at the local hospital that the nurse or clinical physiologist who was taking care of you is a nun. I do not believe that the Joint Hospital Commission inspections (they approve or disapprove a hospital license) allows a nun to wear anything else but approved hospital type garb - while working in a secular hospital. In the local Catholic hospital only the administration (no direct patient contact) wear the habit. All other nuns wear hospital garb.

So while it seems very true that Catholic religious as a whole in America (I do not know what goes on elsewhere) seem to have given up the habit too freely - there does exist those who do wear the habit at all times and those who wear the habit when possible.

In the East - monastic ways (prayer, acetics, the interior life) are very similar across the board. In the West monastic ways may be different among houses. There are contemplative orders, cloistered orders, and perhaps a hundred active �Go out into the world�� orders. We must keep in mind that the total of Catholic orders and religious - is an huge number and while the Catholic orders began in cloistered style - the cloister factor does remain while the active ministries have grown. Third Orders (those not living in communities) exist to accommodate those in vocations such as marriage etc.. to have some way to have religious community. These Third Order people usually only wear habit during meetings. I would make a rough guess that the total number of Catholic Third Order alone - is equal to all Orthodox religious (brother and nun) world wide. So the activities of such a gigantic count of religious monks, brother, nuns, third order - is just as diverse as the count of religious involved to huge.

The cloistered Dominican nuns 20 miles from me - are cloistered (ah ha!) and live a quiet life - almost nobody around here even knows they exist because - they are cloistered nuns. You do not see them on the streets nor find them in social services - nor are they school teachers, councilors or any other type of religious that one would encounter on a walk through downtown,

Catholic numbers have shrunk all around. So where laity or priest did many duties of a secular nature (keep the organization running) nuns do more secular type work in support.

This is the way it is in the East Coast and New England. I am aware that moving West in the US - the Catholic experience is not that good.

Thank you for listening.

-ray

Dear Ray,

As usual, you offer a great post.

I am in full understanding of all that you say.

I think that those here who have a problem with the habit not being worn, have experienced some very secualar, feminist nuns, and are generalizing based upon that...we all make presumptions based upon our own experiences. I know that when I first came on this board, a few thought that I was very liberal simply because I was Greek Orthodox, because that is what their experiences were with other Greek Orthodox. (Fortunately, we have cleared the air, and I giggle thinking, me, Miss Conservative, of all people! )

Getting back to RC sisters, I remember hearing some nuns on television once, who did not wear the habit, and who scandalized me in their feminist views, and in their condemnations of the Holy Father. Perhaps this is the type that some of the posters here were thinking of?

With love in Christ our Lord,
Alice

Perhaps an impertinent tangent but I was watching "Sister Act 1" (don't laugh...it is a good movie and Whoppi is much better than Halle) and the nuns were presented in a wonderful light (Maggie Smith was a great Mother Superior) and I think it also highlighted some of the confusions many "traditional" Catholics might have felt with all the changes...but I could be all wrong.

Nice songs too...especially "Hail Holy Queen"...

Anton

Dear Anton,

It is a rather cute movie...even my husband likes it!

In Christ,
Alice

Just a couple o' things - First, the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) does not make any rules about what people may or may not wear to work.

Second, within a corporate setting, it is corporate policies rather than government mandates which dictate dress (with the possible exception of mandated personal protective equipment).

'sfunny - I've been in healthcare settings where the Muslim women were veiled, and the nuns weren't.

Just kinda interesting. No particular judgment, just interesting.

Cheers,

Sharon

I seem to remember that what you say is true. Rome prefers, encourages, etc... the religious habit but does not mandate it because there are certain situations which it is not reasonable.
[/QUOTE]

Not only is it 'not reasonable' but in some countries it is actually illegal. I wonder if this is a 'human rights issue'? Despite all our esteemed President's praise for the Mexican regime, for example, I believe it is still illegal for clergy and religious to wear clerical clothing or habits in the Republic of Mexico? I don't think Mexico is alone in its legislation about this.

Father bless. I think that it is no longer illegal in Mexico for priests and religious in to wear clerical garb and habits in public. I know when I visit Monterrey my Roman Catholic priest friend wears his collar openly and I often see nuns on the street wearing habits. I believe that law was changed when the pope made his first visit there. Don

I am very glad to hear this. Thank you for the update, my information is obviously dated.

But, I still believe that there are places where it is still illegal?