The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
connorjack, Hookly, fslobodzian, ArchibaldHeidenr, Fernholz
6,169 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (James OConnor), 507 guests, and 82 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,518
Posts417,611
Members6,169
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
#99254 01/16/04 06:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Former
Moderator
Former
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Dear 'Pro-Catholico,' If a person has lived for many years as a Roman Catholic religious and has been a superior, I believe one has the right to evaluate the lifestyle and changes to community life in the Latin Church. Since I have and I was, I make NO apologies for my comments. Last month, my (now) 90 year old former novicemaster and provincial called me in tears. When I asked what was wrong, he said that he was lonely. When I asked why, he told me that he is THE only one who attends daily Mass in the Motherhouse and he's all alone in chapel daily for the Office. He is professed now OVER 60 years and has NO ONE to pray with! Isn't there something wrong here? I would NOT mention this if it were an isolated incident, but sadly it is NOT. In my work as a therapist during the week, I have counseled many Catholic religious who have come with the same kinds of sad tales. One older Sister recently came to me in tears because while on an inter-community retreat with other Sisters...during the party held on the last day of the retreat, she was 'set upon' by several young Sisters who ripped off her modified veil because she was the ONLY religious sister with one on! I'm sorry 'Pro-Catholico' if this is offensive, but I feel that I become angry when I hear such things and when I see someone (anyone) hurt by others.

NOT BY WORKS IS MAN SAVED...LEST ANYONE BOAST! I think St. Paul has said it well. If a person has taken monastic vows to live a life of consecration to Christ, then such a person had better have more than good works to bring before the Just Judgement Seat of Christ---he/she had better show some degree of holiness. We monastics and active religious did NOT enter to do 'good works'---we entered to BECOME SAINTS through REPENTENCE! The liaison between the Church and the world is the laity, who are also consecrated on the day of their Baptism and Chrismation. It is not the express duty of consecrated religious to be that link (the exception being missionaries). The consecrated life is a call above all to holiness and that may or may not have a ministry.

If this forum is to be one of authentic dialogue, my feeling is there should be NO 'sacred cows' but we should be able in charity to discuss any and all topics---especially those that concern the Eastern Churches (either in-communion with Rome or not). My beginning post was an Eastern reflection on Western consecrated life...and further it was a reflection by one who is NOT simply talking, but who has LIVED that life and even been a superior.

If I have offended you or anyone, I am sorry and ask for your forgiveness.

In Him Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#99255 01/16/04 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
Quote
Originally posted by Archimandrite Gregory:
If this forum is to be one of authentic dialogue, my feeling is there should be NO 'sacred cows' but we should be able in charity to discuss any and all topics.
AMEN to this statement.

This is a huge issue for me around here.

Like I said before, Fr. Gregory, if you wanna become Catholic again and start running things here, you've got my recommendation in Rome for what it's worth! (Less than a cup of espresso fort�, but oh well)

In the spirit of authentic dialogue, I offer the following (Fr. Gregory you know all this but for the other Easterners to understand why we don't consider all our religious to be "monastic"):

The Catholic Church in the West divides religious (those with the vows of poverty chastity and obedience) into "Religious Orders" and "Religious Congregations."

Religious Congregations are primarily those groups founded after the Council of Trent. They include the Redemptorists, the Sulpicians, and the Legionaries of Christ.

Religious orders are the older groups, and are considered more venerable. They are divided into canons/clerks regular, friars, and monks. The Franciscans and Dominicans are friars, the Benedictines and their various offshoots are monks, the Augustinians and Norbertines are canons regular, etc.

Thus, in western terms, one can live poverty, chastity, and obedience in community and not be called a "monastic." I understand that this is a narrower use of the term than that of the East. Semantics can cause a lot of bloodshed!

I do see a lot of value in the "witness" of the habit, however. I met a couple of Bulgarian ROCOR priests in Chicago Midway one time, and people were coming up and asking them about their "outfits". It gave them many opportunities to speak with people whom they otherwise would have walked right past! Fr. John Riley of the Arlington diocese (whom I met during my time at Christendom) always wore his clericals, even when canoeing (and he was a d*** good canoer too!). He said that he couldn't even say how many times someone came up to him at random times and asked to go to confession!!! Think how many souls were thus saved!!!

God bless you all.

In Christ,

LatinTrad

#99256 01/16/04 07:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Alice,

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your words. And know that I was not offended by them. Though I do not agree with the comment
Quote
habits and collars make for a more civilized and structured society
I certainly respect your convictions. Also I found your explanation of the use of Hassidic garb extremely interesting. Hopefully we can all be as charitable as you have shown yourself to be.

God Bless You,

ProCatholico


Glory be to God
#99257 01/16/04 07:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Rev. Gregory,

I offer my thanks for your reply. And I accept your apology. I still disagree with your concept that our Roman Catholic sisters and brothers entered their vocations solely for becoming
Quote
SAINTS through REPENTENCE
I do not deny the stories which you have told us. But just as these sad stories exist so do many happy ones regarding religious sisters and brothers. Fortunatly I have had many good experiences being with many different Catholic orders and particpating in their works. As another poster said, our ideas depend largely on our experiences. May God Bless You,

ProCatholico


Glory be to God
#99258 01/17/04 12:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 522
N
Member
Member
N Offline
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 522
Also, there is a great deal of discussion among some religious in the Latin Church as to whether the habit is a sign of consecration or a sign of the common life. If the sign of their common life, then a simple pin can be entirely appropriate. I like seeing religious in habits, but we also have to keep in mind that originally the habit was usually the common dress for certain towns or regions or social classes of the time the community was founded. Don

#99259 01/17/04 12:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Former
Moderator
Former
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
My Dear 'Pro-Catholico,' You stated in your post, "I still disagree with your concept that our Roman Catholic sisters and brothers entered their vocations solely for becoming
quote: SAINTS through REPENTANCE."

I actually quite agree with YOU, I don't think that most/many of them entered their vocations to become saints through repentance either,and that I feel is precisely THE problem and my original point. I think most/many modern Roman Catholic religious don't understand their vocation well at all. If you read the lives and vocational stories of St. Francis of Assisi or St. Dominic or even Venerable Mother Catherine McAuley or Mother St. John Fontbonne, you will see that THEY ALL saw their vocation exactly the same, as a call to HOLINESS through PURIFYING AND CHANGING THE HEART! You see what is being discussed here is not really habit vs. no habit or symbols, but rather the very meaning and understanding of the vocation to the consecrated life. Canon Law in the West has always stated that one enters religous/consecrated life for the salvation of one's soul by profession of the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. These are to bind the vowed man or woman to Christ his/her spouse and the spouse of the Church...so that during his/her life he can turn more and more to Christ and be conformed to Him in all things (in other words metanoia, conversion of the heart, or simply REPENTANCE).

And what of vocations these days? Is Almighty God not calling young men and women in to the consecrated life? Assuredly He IS. The Dominican Sisters in Nashville, TN are a typical example. They have maintained their consecrated life very much the way St. Dominic intended, they wear the same habit, keep a regular life or prayer and repentance and have obedience as the core of their life...and every year they accept 14-20 postulants into their community just like most congregations did forty years ago when I entered. They still have 12-14 of those candidates receiving the habit and 10-12 are professed each year. Why? Because young people desire a challenge and are willing to sacrifice for Christ. If they wanted simple service, they could go to the Peace Corps or any number of other places, but they desire HOLINESS.

In the last few years our Greek Orthodox Archdiocese has opened over 19 monasteries and most of these are now FULL and all are thriving despite the difficult life and lack of modern conveniences. The Franciscan community I entered 40 years ago has not had ONE VOCATION since 1975 and yet Fr. Benedict Groeschel's community of Franciscans of the Renewal, who life the ancient life that Francis began have many vocations every year and from all over the world. Blessed Mother Theresa's Missionaries of Charity number almost 5,000 Sister now! Why? Because of their good works only? No, rather because Mother made her foundation HOLINESS OF LIFE, prayer, fasting, simplicity of life, obedience to the superior who stands in the place of Christ, etc. Christ is still calling men and women, but these men and women sadly find many congregations banal and empty.

Let us hope and pray that the Lord will keep calling men and women to establish authentic communities of the consecrated life, where young men and women can enter the School of Holiness and become Saints and lights in the midst of an ever darkening world!

In Christ Jesus Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

P.S. Archimandrites in our Slavic usage are
addressed exactly like protonotary apostolics
and Archabbots and styled, "Right Reverend"


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#99260 01/17/04 03:04 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 89
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 89
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Having been a seminarian with the SSPX (no comments on this, please), I have to say that I know the profound impact of wearing a religious habit. Receiving the cassock was probably the happiest day of my life, and having to leave it was one of the saddest. You who have never been in the religious life cannot imagine waking up in the morning and vesting sacred garments that are your everyday attire. I can still remember the prayers I said in Latin in putting them on. I will only share the one we said while putting on the cassock:

"Dominus pars hereditatis meae et calicis meis, tu es qui restitutes haereditatem meam mihi."

"The Lord is the portion of my inheritance and of my cup; it is Thou who shalt restore my inheritance to me."

The cassock helped to keep my thoughts clean of impure and uncharitable things. Everytime I had one, all I had to do was look down and see all black, from head to toe... the color of repentance and mourning of this life. "Que muero porque no muero...." The cassock was joy when I was sad, the promise of an eternal crown when I longed vainly for the world. I miss it dearly, and I was in tears when I had to take it off.

How so many modern religious chose to go without it is beyond me. In a world with so many temptations, a person who wants to consecrate his or her life to God needs all the help Sacred Tradition can offer. The habit is the sign that being consecrated to God is not a nine to five job, it is a marriage, it requires kenosis: the emptying out of one's being for the Beloved. It means a death in order to live. I hope to one day be a monk and be able to do this, since I have been a failed Christian in the world. True, the habit doesn't make the monk, but it keeps him one.

Arturo

#99261 01/17/04 04:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Being down here in Irondale, I remember how excited the sisters were at Our Lady of the Angels when Mother Angelica decided that they would go back into the long full habits. It was a truly proud day around here when they appeared in them for the first time. She is out of room more or less. But it is because they truly live the life they are called too. That is what people are looking for in religious life.

#99262 01/17/04 10:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
All,

I came across this explanation from a religious order themselves as to why some sisters wear a veil and habit and why some do not.

From: School Sisters of Notre Dame (SSND)

Some Sisters wear veils because traditionally, in the Church, this garb was the recognized form of clothing for a member of a religious community.These Sisters prefer to honor that tradition. Some Sisters don't wear a veil because they have chosen a different outward sign/symbol of their religious lifestyle commitment: a special cross, a ring, a pin, that represents their specific community.Most especially, the outward sign of how Sisters relate to one another in care and concern is the most compelling witness to God's love.

God Bless,

ProCatholico


Glory be to God
#99263 01/17/04 01:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Former
Moderator
Former
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Friar Bernardo Finelli, O.F.M.

Not too long ago it was a normal occurrence to see a Religious man or woman in their distinctive Religious habit anywhere you went. In the recent years, since the Second Vatican Council, we have seen a widespread abandonment of this practice. In the current time, we rarely see Religious wearing a distinctive form of dress. What is the reason for this change? Is it still mandated by the Church for Religious to wear clothing which is distinct from the "world, " and if so, should this be worn in public? What exactly does the Church teach with regards to the dress of Religious?

Many Religious have abandoned their distinctive Religious dress, or wear it for Religious functions alone. Some of the reasons they give for this are: "We can better approach people when we are like them; We will not offend people who are not of our Faith; it is very uncomfortable to wear a habit because it is cumbersome; You should not wear the habit to certain places or the people who see you will be scandalized. " These are among many of the reasons that I have heard personally from many different Religious.

It is important to examine Church guidelines on this issue. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, there is a specific section concerning the Religious habit which is entitled, 'The Obligations And Rights Of Institutes And Their Members.' St. Thomas, talking about obligation says, "all positive law, if it be just and prudently made, whether civil or ecclesiastical or religious, binds in conscience and must be observed UT IN PLURIBUS (see ST la 2ae, 96.1 ad3; la 2ae, 96.6 and passium) under pain of sin and corresponding punishment as laid down in the law itself." In Can. 669 section �1 we read: "Religious are to wear the habit of the Institute made according to the norm of proper law as a sign of their consecration and as a testimony of poverty." And in section �2 we read: "Clerical religious of an Institute which does not have its own habit are to wear clerical dress according to the norm of can. 284. " The second part of the same canon pertains to those clerical Religious who do not have a specific habit and not those who do. The Code of Canon Law makes it clear that the dress of Religious is the habit, and those clerical Religious who do not have a habit are to wear clerical dress. In this case, when should the Religious habit be worn? Should the habit be worn in public or only in the Religious house?

The document, "Essential Elements in the Church's Teaching On Religious Life," by the Sacred Congregation for Religious and for Secular Institutes, of May 31, 1983, states, "The witness of religious is public. This public witness to Christ and to the Church implies separation from the world. "No one lights a lamp to put it under a tub they put it on the lamp-stand where it shines for everyone in the house to see (Mt 5:15). " How can the sign value of the habit touch people outside the religious house if it is not worn outside the religious house? "In fact, if it is not public, it is not witness," says Fr. John Hardon in Religious Life: What the Church Teaches.

Pope Paul VI knew the great responsibility of Religious to be witnesses. In his document "Ecclesiae Sancte," he pointed out the obligation of wearing the habit at all times, and that it should be removed only in very serious situations. He stated that Religious are to obey the local ordinary and episcopal conference who, "to prevent scandal to the faithful can prevent clerics, even exempt religious from wearing lay dress in public."

Pope John Paul II in a letter to the Bishops of the United States, dated April 3, 1983, listed among the Essential Elements of religious life, "public witness."

The habit is not just for the good of the Religious, but it is for the good of the people of God and for those who do not know, or refuse to know God. As stated in canon 669, the habit is a "sign." For something to be a sign it must be seen. The sign does not point to itself but in the sign one sees something else.

The habit ,as a sign, points primarily to God, and also shows that the person who is wearing it is the sole property and possession of God. The person bearing the sign attests to his or her being consecrated. Consecration means to be totally set apart; for the use of God alone.

Cardinal Jean Danilou in his book, Why The Church? stated that we are, "Behind the times." We can all attest to the fact that many cults and religions wear a distinctive form of dress and they are not ashamed. We who have the fullness of truth as Roman Catholics are afraid to let people know it.

The Holy Father is not afraid to stand up for this. In one of his talks in 1979, Pope John Paul II stated, "I say: rejoice to be witnesses to Christ in the modern world. Do not hesitate to be recognizable, identifiable in the streets as men and women who have consecrated their lives to God and who have given up everything worldly to follow Christ. Believe that contemporary men and women set value on the visible signs of the consecration of your lives. People need signs and reminders of God in the modern secular city, which has few reminders of God left. So do not help the trend towards 'taking God off the streets' by adapting secular modes of dress and behavior yourselves!" This desire to have Religious wear their habits at all times is not only the desire of the Holy Father, if that is not enough, "but the desire of the Church often expressed by so many of the faithful (Pope John Paul 11, 10/7/78)."

By careful study of Church documents and talks of the Holy Father it is clear what the mind and will of the Church is. The mind and will of the Church is that religious have a distinctive habit and wear it wherever they may go.

The wearing of the habit then is the outward sign of a Religious' total consecration to God; a witness of holy poverty; a kind of armor or protection; and it is the visible sign of union with the Holy Father, who is the Vicar of Christ and the visible head of the Church.



Vatican City
October 16, 1987

Dear Brother Bernardo,

I congradulate you on the clear and convincing exposition about "The religious Habit." It is completely conformed to the doctrine and wishes of Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

I hope that many priests and religious, if they shall read your defense of the Catholic discipline, shall be more obedient to the ecclesiastical Authority, and proud to dress in the religious habit as a sign of consecration to God and conformity to Jesus Christ, who, as the Word of the Father, did humble Himself dressing in human nature.



Sincerely your brother in Jesus Christ,

Mario Luigi Cardinal Ciappi, O.P.

(Cardinal Ciappi was the personal theologian of Popes John Paul II, Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul I)


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#99264 01/18/04 01:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
From the: Sisters, Adorers of the Blood of Christ

Some sisters feel it is important to distinguish themselves from others to make a public statement about the vows they have taken. Others prefer to dress similarly to those among whom they work, since all people have a call from God, sisters do not need to dress differently to live out their calling. It really depends upon each congregation's guidelines and personal preference of each sister.

I could not agree more. Thank God for their selfless works.

ProCatholico


Glory be to God
#99265 01/18/04 11:38 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337
Likes: 24
Moderator
Member
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337
Likes: 24
ProCatholico,

I think that one can sympathize with what you are saying, it is the works that are important not the garb. However, Canon Law and Popes Paul VI and John Paul II have called on religious both monastic and non to retain traditonal habits. That many choose to ignore the law and the call while continuing to do good work does not exonerate them. The Church has always placed a high value on visible, outward signs. That some circles within the Latin Church have deemphasized them to the point of becoming defacto iconoclasts is troublesome and sad. I do not think it is coincidence that those religious that are against habits are also those involved in dissent in other areas most notably neo-pagan feminism. I think it is very telling that the de-habited orders are attracting next to no vocations while those emphasizing tradition are having success.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#99266 01/19/04 09:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 180
Fr. Deacon and all,

I want to make it clear that I have no personal bias either for or agaisnt the use of religious habits by our brothers and sisters.
I simply feel that the option is open to the members themselves and not for the laity to make the calls.
I'd like to point out that yes it is true that John Paul II is in favor of religious habits but never has he outrightly punished or condemned those who do not wear the habits.

Now for some Canon Law (1983). smile

Canon Law 669 �1 Religious are to wear the habit of the institute made according to the norm of proper law as a sign of their consecration and as a testimony of poverty.
669 �2 Clerical religious of an institute which does not have its own habit are to wear clerical dress according to the norm of can. 284.

Canon Law 284 Clerics are to wear suitable ecclesiastical garb in accord with the norms issued by the conference of bishops and in accord with legitimate local custom.

In essence, as with all good laws, these canons are open to some degree of flexibility. Clearly Section �2 of Canon 669 makes the realization that not all religious communities wear a habit. However they must follow Canon 284. This canon states that clerics are to wear SUITABLE garb in accord with their bishops and local custom (meaning that they must have their bishops approval). In other words the use of a ring, pin, or scapular are SUITABLE in so much that the religious order received approval from their local bishops to make use of these items as their "outward symbol". No where do the canons state that a veil and full length habit are required. Though the use of such is much to be admired.

It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ Jesus.- Philippians 3:12

ProCatholico


Glory be to God
#99267 01/19/04 12:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,196
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,196
Just some musings....


My daughter went to a Montessori preschool and Kindergarten. The director was a Dominican Sister. Unlike most of the (under 75 year old) members of her community, she veils. I once asked her about it. She said that originally she didn't, but when she was working in the Southwest some years back, a "little old Mexican man" came up to her and asked "Hey Sister, why you no want to look like a Sister?" and she decided that if it was that important to him, it should be that important to her. I was of course DELIGHTED that my daughter had daily contact with a WONDERFUL, loving Religious who looked like a Religious for 3 years....
-------------
Some current habits have evolved into entirely impractical garments. A friend and I cooperated in creating a Dominican Friar's habit that was actually a functional garment (rather than glorified choir attire) for our friend and confessor who had this crazy yen to actually wear one most of the time and not set fire to his sleeves while cooking, have something weather-worthy (polyester isn't particularly useful either summer OR winter), washable, TRADITIONAL etc. It's gotten a lot of use...
----------------------------------------------
A few years back I had the absurd experience of having a priest get rather argumentative that I MUST be a Sister because I was wearing a schmatte on my head, as I often do.
Interestingly enough, the female Religious present were all bareheaded. It got rather silly by the time I politely suggested that the reverend father consult my husband and kids about whether I was a nun....
-------------------------------------------------
I happened to go through a fast-food drive through a summer or two ago, and the attendant was equally insistent that I must be into rap music because I was wearing a kerchief - there being NO OTHER earthly reason to do so, evidently. The fact that I drive with my windows open in the summer and I hate having hair whipping in my face simply did not compute (nor would any religious explanation, I wager).
------------------------------------------------

I'm a Byzantine Secular Franciscan. Fifty or sixty years ago, Seculars had a habit, which some of 'em wore all the time, and most of 'em wore at least some of the time. Now Seculars aren't allowed a habit at all, ever - except to be buried in. I'm not entirely comfortable about that - the irrational four-year-old-child part of me seems to think that the Lord would be able to recognize me dead better in something He'd seen me wearing when I was alive.....Oh well, as long as my ring doesn't come off when the bus hits me, I guess...
-------------------------------------------------


Just a few musings....


Sharon
(For whom SFO means Sinner of the First Order)

#99268 01/19/04 12:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
H
Administrator
Member
Administrator
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Quote
Originally posted by Sharon Mech:
a habit that was actually a functional garment (rather than glorified choir attire)
Sharon
My dear friend, Sharon,

I have never found the traditional habit (even a glorified version) anything less than also functional.

Maybe more a comment on my 'function' (or lack thereof) than on the holy habit....

Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0