www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West No salvation outside the Church

If this is addressed to me then you are preaching to the converted. I am well aware of the Latin CHurch being only one of the 22, another point I try to get accross to the Latin 'trads' on Catholic Answers. In respect of your later points, again I am aware of them and spend quite a bit of effort arguing against the 'no exceptions' EENS stance of some.

JGC

I also never use Roman Catholic as historically it's a term of abuse in these parts, though you will see some Churches with it on there boards outside...

If the official name is, "The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church," it's easy to see why many would consider "Roman Catholic" to be valid. Maybe we are quibbling over semantics here. I am not Latin, but am Roman as part of the official Church of Rome which calls itself - you guessed it, see above.

I am not Latin or Roman, but unlike the above poster I am rather in communion with the Church of Rome as an Eastern Catholic belonging to a particular church sui iuris.

Thank God for Lumen Gentium.

Mike, that means 22 Catholic Churches cannot be saved as they are "outside" of the Apostolic Church of Rome. I belong to an Apostolic Church with its Apostolic origins of St. Andrew in Constantinople which is in communion with Rome. Your post is also not consistent with the Church's position regarding the validity and efficacy of Orthodox sacraments and holy orders.

In fact, Unitatis Redintegratio refers to the Orthodox in such ways as "...These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy." (15)

And later: "... All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church." (17)

Alex,
Was this St Silouan of Mt Athos???? It sounds just like some of his writings and quotes from his life.

Come on, Diak. You know we are all closet Romans. Just ask some of the Latin Traditionalists. I love being in communion with Rome. If someone wants to call me Roman, I won't dwell on semantics.

Come on, Diak. You know we are all closet Romans. Just ask some of the Latin Traditionalists. I love being in communion with Rome. I have no relatives or ancestors from Kiev, Kyiv, or any other Eastern city - none from Canada either, if Alex is reading. I am just an American who belongs to a Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. It's a great place to be.

Out of curiosity, do the Orthodox consider us Romans? I wouldn't be surprised if they do, but haven't heard any Orthodox say.

The term "extra ecclesia non salus is a teaching of the early church " this is clear and as someone said we can not water it down, but it also has to be understood correctly.
Little time to go into it right now but lets take it from this angle. 1. How is this true? 2. How has this been incorrectly understood at times?
Stephanos I

Dear Charles,

A fascinating question!

The Oriental Orthodox Churches certainly DO consider Byzantine Orthodox and Catholics to be "Romans" and Rome and Constantinople, for them, are two sides to the Western Church coin!

Byzantium was, after all, the "New Rome" and the Turks referred to the Patriarch of Constantinople as the "Patriarch of the Romans."

To be a "Roman" prior to 1054 was to belong to "Romania" or the Roman empire, East and West. It was to be a Christian, Orthodox in faith and Catholic by Church, to partake of a synthesis of Greek, Latin and Slavic culture, the height of Western religious/cultural achievement.

The Orthodox theologians refer to themselves as being a "Romaioi" and/or "Rhoum."

We Byzantines truly are "Rhoum" or Romans.

Alex Roman

What?!?

I thought extra ecclesia non salus was addressed just to people who hang around the entrance to a church smoking and/or chatting while there are services going on!

I see I still have much to learn . . .

Dear Charles,

This Orthodox Christian does NOT consider the Eastern Churches to be "Roman", but Catholic.

Gaudior, presenting an Orthodox point of view, which may be orthodox, but is probably not catholic.

Thanks, I have wondered about that. I suspect that some members of Apostolic Churches do a little too much hair-splitting with semantic distinctions. Do you suppose our divisions might possibly be one of the main reasons we have not been able to spread our faith to others?

Charles

I suspect it has less to do with our divisions, but with how we live our lives. Most of us apologize for every aspect of our faith. "Now, you'll find the services too long" or, "We are supposed to [insert verb here] but no one really does that...." And, the moment we have done so, others clearly tell that whatever we may KNOW about our faith, we obviously don't think it that hot an issue, or, we might practice it better.

Gaudior, who wonders where someone ever said a life in Christ was supposed to be EASY...

It seems evident to me that the more we seek to preserve ethnic identities within the Church, the less we are able to successfully do non-ethnic missionary work. There is a need for both, of course. Mission work has to regard the interests/customs of its potential audience in order to establish interest in the mission.