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Mar 25th, 2025
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Gaudior, who wonders where someone ever said a life in Christ was supposed to be EASY... It isn't easy. It has caused disagreements with family members who wanted to go their own way - against Church teachings, of course. I once worked in a section at a government facility where homosexual supervisors had tried to hire as many of their friends as possible. I was always the outsider in that section and was looked on as uncharitable and judgmental. Well, let's hear it for uncharitable and judgmental. If not being those means going along with every sin that comes down the road, then I stand on my uncharitableness with no apologies to anyone.
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Originally posted by JGC:
Current EENS shananigans at Catholic Answers.........
AAARRGGHHH! Something seems to tell me you could do with a really stiff drink.  I do hope your head will survive after it has been banged against the brick wall so much recently. Commiserations Anhelyna
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This rarely gets mentioned, but have any of you thought about the fact that there may not be salvation for some who are WITHIN the Church? That's really sad, and does cause me to worry.
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Dear Charles, That reminds me of the "Evangelical Baptist Pentecostal of the Seventh Day Observance" who once told his friend sitting next to him in the pew, "I'm only really sure of the salvation of you and me - and sometimes I'm not so sure about you!"  Alex
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
This rarely gets mentioned, but have any of you thought about the fact that there may not be salvation for some who are WITHIN the Church? That's really sad, and does cause me to worry. And I'd like to remind some of those "no salvation outside the church" fanatics that a lot of them, by joining schismatic groups like the SSPX, have placed THEMSELVES outside the Church. So they'd better HOPE there's salvation out there! (and by the way, hi and Happy New Year, everyone! I'm back! )
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
This rarely gets mentioned, but have any of you thought about the fact that there may not be salvation for some who are WITHIN the Church? That's really sad, and does cause me to worry. Yes, and one of those people is myself. I would much rather spend my time worrying about my own salvation than complain about the schismatics and heretics who are inside/outside the Church.
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Hi Theist Gal - glad to see you and your 3 wee friends back again
Anhelyna
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Originally posted by Mikey Stilts: Originally posted by byzanTN:
[b] This rarely gets mentioned, but have any of you thought about the fact that there may not be salvation for some who are WITHIN the Church? That's really sad, and does cause me to worry.
I would much rather spend my time worrying about my own salvation than complain about the schismatics and heretics who are inside/outside the Church. [/b]Amen!
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
This rarely gets mentioned, but have any of you thought about the fact that there may not be salvation for some who are WITHIN the Church? That's really sad, and does cause me to worry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, and one of those people is myself.
I would much rather spend my time worrying about my own salvation than complain about the schismatics and heretics who are inside/outside the Church. 
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Originally posted by JGC:
Latin 'traditionalists' who quite vociferously advocate their interpretation of this meaning no salvation for anyone outside the visible Catholic (even Roman Catholic, sometimes!)
JGC Dear JGC: The phrase, as used within the early Councils that coined it - refers explicitly to members of the Catholic church who are excommunicated. In the phrase the use of the word �salvation� refers to - the sacraments. In its essence they were saying that the sacraments of a group which have broken communion with the church - and have been excommunicated - are no longer valid sacraments. The phrase is NOT applicable to non-Catholics. I have written in this forum extensively, and several time, regarding the original meaning of this phrase within the context of the Council documents in which it first appears. I do not know if any of my past, extensive, posts still exist. The Church has no authority to regulate or judge anyone but its own members and its own �things�. As regards the people who take this phrase out of context, or who do not know the context, or can not see the paradox of it according to God�s charity - why beat your head against the wall?? It is enough that you understand the phrase and do not extend it where it does not apply or belong. Imagine yourself sitting in a math class - and you find that you understand some math formula but several around you do not. Shall you cease your own progress by debating and arguing with your class mates day after day? Better it is that you spend your time on your own progress rather than hold yourself to the pace of those who do not grasp math so well. When you bang your head against a wall long enough - do you know what happens? Yes - you get a headache. -ray
-ray
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Originally posted by RayK: Originally posted by JGC:
[b] Latin 'traditionalists' who quite vociferously advocate their interpretation of this meaning no salvation for anyone outside the visible Catholic (even Roman Catholic, sometimes!)
JGC
As regards the people who take this phrase out of context, or who do not know the context, o
Imagine yourself sitting in a math class - and you find that you understand some math formula but several around you do not. Shall you cease your own progress by debating and arguing with your class mates day after day? Better it is that you spend your time on your own progress rather than hold yourself to the pace of those who do not grasp math so well.
When you bang your head against a wall long enough - do you know what happens? Yes - you get a headache.
-ray [/b]Good advice  , one of my new years resolutions is to simply post the Catechism and L.G. references on Catholic Answers, so that any protestant enquirers can see the official position, but without any comment from myself as I simply usually end up with a swarm of 'strict' EENS'ists trying to sting me http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriors/The%20Swarm.042.php .... 
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"Tolle lege, Tolle lege"
Has no one taken up the document "Domine Jesu" and given it a thorough examination?"
Stephanos I
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Originally posted by Stephanos I:
"Tolle lege, Tolle lege"
Unless I miss my guess, "Tolle lege, Tolle lege" is an emphatic Latin for "Take (and) Raed". I readily admit that I have not read all the documents of the Catholic Church (I should live so long as to have the time) but I imagine that this one - presents nothing new - no change of position. I would assume that Domine Jesu is consistent with the gospels and the teaching of the church down through the centuries including Vatican II� and it should be read and interpreted within that context of continuity. I am aware that some give this document (and others) a fundamentalist interpretation to say that those who are not members of the Catholic church militant - are without any means of justification. This of course is a Calvinist interpretation in as much as this assumes the logic that God has predestined some to be Catholics (and go to heaven) while non-Catholics were created from birth for hell. I am not saying that you hold this Calvinist interpretation, or a fundamentalist interpretation. I do not know your views on this subject. A Calvanist kind of fundamentalist interpretation makes the basics error of not knowing the difference between salvation (to save from sinking and destruction) and justification (cooperation with grace toward sanctification). Nor does this type of interpretation admit of stages of spiritual progress (accomplished through stages of purgation). The Calvinist view is black and white - either you are a member of the church and saved (misused to mean justified) or you are predestined to hell. For the Catholic - there is a daily cooperation with Providence. Daily choices corresponding to the degree of enlightenment of conscience. This has been known in the Catholic (and Orthodox) church as the Three Stages of the Spiritual life. They are: Purgative, Illuminative, and Unitive. And the possibility of further purgation after physical death. The church is an aid to the one and only means of justification which means the church and Jesus have called �doing the will of the Father�. That fact - the early Council made very clear in the sense that neither membership in the church nor reception of the sacraments automatically produces - justification. In as much Providence comes to men of all creeds - of all times - by the fact of being created humans - that means that the effectual means of justification (doing the will of God - a daily cooperation with God and conscience within the stage of the events of life) is extended by God - to all men - no matter their religion, race, church, etc.. Such was the Good Samaritan. Such was his means of justification and sanctification - without church membership nor sacraments. As regards the subject of this thread - there is no salvation (sacrements) outside of the church - but there is and maybe - justification and santification outside of membership in the social church militant. Have you never read the story of the Samaritan? Moses and Elijah and all the prophets before Jesus were not members of the Catholic church. If we admit that the Catholic church is the further extension of the covenant established by Moses - than the Good Samaritan was neither a Jew (the covenant under Moses) nor a Catholic (the covenant now extended to Gentiles through Jesus). Given the choice of sitting with the Good Samaritan in hell - or a legalistic Catholic in heaven� I would choose to sit with the Good Samaritan. I do not know your own interpretation of this subject� and I will not argue it - if it is different from my own. I trust we agree on the essential points. I may not have written them well. -ray
-ray
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Saying that there is no salvation outside of the Church is not the same thing as saying some of those outside the visible Church will not be saved.
God saves whom He wills. Whether they are in or outside of the visible Church. And of course being a part of the visible Church does not guarantee anyone salvation.
St Augustine said; "There are some that are outside of the visible Church who are actually in the Church, and there are some who are within the visible Church who are actually outside of it."
What we do know is that all salvation is mediated
through the Church, Christ beging the Head.
Stephanos I
PS And no I do not have a fundamentalist interpretation of "Extra Ecclesia Non Salus".
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