www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

I had the opportunity this past week of watching some of EWTN's coverage of Pope John Paul II's pilgrimage to the Holy Land. One could not help but to see that he is led directly by the Holy Spirit and that he was clearly laying foundations for Christians to reach out to one another to heal past wounds and then work together to again become one. He also reached out to non-Christians to witness our love for Christ as well as our respect for them and for their faith traditions. There is no other earthly leader in the world - religious or political - that could accomplish what he has accomplished during his reign. Something quite miraculous for a Church that Robert would describe as 'without grace'.

Dear Philothea,
Your remarks are a form of exageration not substantiated by historical facts in regards to Catholicism's atrocities. The posted statements I have written are over your head. I know much about Catholic history to put you to shame but I have no intention of doing so except at your request. The standards I apply to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are based upon Holy Tradition. I don't know what are your standards. I have been consistent in noting acknowledging problems committed by peoples of the Orthodox and Catholic religions. This has not been my real argument. What I have been arguing has been basically Catholicism's violations against Holy Tradition as understood and defined by Orthodoxy. It would be best for your salvation to come back to Orthodoxy. In regards to the Crusades in the Holy Lands they were a sinful undertaking. Only someone blind and ignorant of the circumstances would believe otherwise. I kind of wonder what life would have been like if the Moslems did take over Europe. I don't think it would have been that bad in comparison to Western Christianities crimes against humanity. The only bully I have known in the study of history is Rome herself. Rome was the aggressor because she allowed herself to be overrun by barbaric peoples and violate Holy Tradition. One finally note about the Eucharist. The doctrine of Transubstantion is limited and has cataphatic approach which is opposite to the Orthodox understanding. I really don't seem much difference between you and the Reformist Church.

Robert,

Your note seems to contain some inconsistencies. For example, you say: Might I suggest that you have applied your understanding of those traditions? However, what you are saying is that you have decided the Catholic Church is wrong because it's wrong. While it is certainly true that many Catholic practices come from the development of Tradition it is equally true that they are not inconsistent with Tradition.

You continue: which you immediately contradict by saying: Either you are saying the Moslems were not barbaric or that had Europe been taken over by the Moslems Christianity would have flourished. Neither are consistent with history. Look at the sad state of Alexandria, one of Christianity's shining lights in the first 300 year.

Finally you write: Would you care to explain what you mean here?

Fr. Deacon Edward

Dear in Christ Robert,

First of all I should like to recall to mind previous suggestions to you about aiming a verbal barb which is personal, such as intimating that your knowledge of a subject is far above another's understanding. While your words do not call someone stupid, we can all read that meaning there. I am sure that we can all carry on lively and respectful discussions here without reverting to sophomoric namecalling.


Secondly, I would like to take issue with a statement I hope that you made flippantly and would reconsider, supposing that life would have been easier for Christians in Europe under the Moslems than under Western authority. Would you care to ask the Serbs that question? For over 500 years Orthodoxy in Serbia was clandestine and untold numbers of martyrs were created by their adherance to the Orthodox Faith under great pressure from their Moslem rulers.

Normally you have chosen your words carefully, so this latest statement of yours surprises me. Either you are not as erudite as you seem or purport to be, or you succumb to a weakness of hyperbole in your argument. Either case...please take care in the future. I do not want to see a good discussion devolve into a sandbox tantrum.

unworthy servant,

+Kyrill

Dear Fr. Kyrill,
God bless ya, I always love to hear from you. I purposely wrote the statement to elicit a response. I am glad that my statment has caught someone's attention. I seriously wouldn't have wanted or want to see Muslim rule in Europe as it was imposed upon the forgotten Christians of the Middle East. I believe if Orthodoxy was practiced by all the adherents in the Middle East the Middle East would become Christian again. That is why we have the Islamic religion in our midst. Christianity thrives on martyrdom by living the Gospel. The reason the Serbs lost Kosovo was because there is little Orthodoxy practiced. God grant the Patriarch Pavla many years for his endurance and efforts for trying to preserve and live the faith even though, generally speaking, the Serbs are nominal Christians. The Serbs of the past are not the Serbs of the present. Their forefathers had their Orthodoxy put to the test which endured the test of time until now. Maybe as Islam spreads through the West in alarming numbers it will seep and penetrate through the infrastructures of Western society and take over like a cancer. Perhaps, this is the rude awaking we will need to get us out of our comfort zones. As an Orthodox I take no pleasure in the ignorance and blasphemey of insensible Christians be they Orthodox or non-Orthodox. The truth must be spoken and seen in action or else the similiar fate of the Christians of the Middle East and Serbia will become an reenactment in Western society. I have no love for Islam and no love for watered-down, violated Christianity. I believe God has permitted Islam to flourish in our midst because we are unworthy servants and lack Orthopraxy. We do not deserve the treasures in Heaven. Serbia had an awesome history which does not currently exist at the present time. That awesome history revealed the truth of Orthodoxy through martyrdom. The fate of Orthodoxy is intrinsically tied to sacrifices and martyrdom---Christ being the perfect sacrifice. The True Faith is under persecution by those within and outside the Church. The modern-day Judas' would love to see the Church conform to earthly rather than divine standards as taught by Holy Tradition. People need to acknowledge their sins and violations of Holy Tradition if God is to acknowledge them before the dreaded Judgement Seat of Christ. Perhaps, it will take a heresy such as Islam to revive the Orthodox Faith in those lands considered at one time Orthodox. Life for a practicing Orthodox was never meant to be easy and it certainly isn't easy for me. Look at the life our Lord recorded in Scriptures. Where did He have it easy? The state of sin makes it very difficult and challenging to both preach and practice Orthodoxy with the Slanderer on our left side. Whether one lives in the East or the West, the state of sin remains. One can run but cannot hide. God knows the mind of the sinners that promote their own heresies. God loves those who keep His word as taught by Holy Tradition. Those that violate Holy Tradition teachings that are historical near to Orthodoxy would be the Roman Catholic Church under the sway of Papal Infallibility. I do not want to name the violations because I think everyone knows what I mean. At any rate, may God grant us His mercy and pray that Orthodoxy spreads rather than the lies against it.

Rob,

�You know very well there was nothing Orthodox about what the communist did but instead you insisted that this is the fault of all the Orthodox Churches,the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.�

Elias: The Orthodox cooperated with the Communists. This cooperation is not a synergy with the Holy Spirit; it was a synergy (or symphony) with an atheistic State. No Theosis here. At least the infamous Inquisition gave you a trial with a lawyer and witnesses. Hee, hee. The Orthodox just gladly occupied properties belonging to others. I wonder how far the Orthodox cooperatives would have gotten in the backwoods of Alabama?

�These uniate churches were at one time Orthodox until Rome came from the back door and stole them away.�

Elias: Stole them? Back door? Did Rome use those black helicopters too? Your assessment seems like a page taken from one of Jack Chick�s publications. The Communists must have found the same back door opened by the Orthodox, Jack Chickovsky.

�I am not condoning what the KGB church did and it was wrong as it was wrong for the uniates to break with the Orthodox Church.�

Elias: There was an element of freedom in the Union movement that was not found in the Communist/Orthodox collaboration to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. The Rusyns first bishop was consecrated by an Orthodox bishop!!! Thank you.


Elias

Here is a section from an article from:
http://www.ukemonde.com/church/slipijhist.htm

"... at the moment of Bolshevik retreat before the Nazis, Archbishop Slipyj had been put to the wall to be shot along with others but had miraculously been freed. Now, as Metropolitan, he was to have only a few months to exercise his ministry in freedom. On 11 April 1945 the Soviet authorities arrested him along with other bishops. St. Georges's Cathedral in Lviv was searched. Imprisoned priests were told to subit to Russian Orthodoxy or be condemed as agents of "universal fascism."
When all the Ukrainian hierarchy had been seized the Moscow Patriarch Alexei directed a "pastoral letter" to the Catholic faithful telling them that their pastors had abandoned them. Three hundred courageous priests protested to Soviet Minister Molotov and demanded the release of their bishops but their demands were vain. The communists took Metropolitan Slipyj from Lviv to Kyiv, isolated him and subjected him to intensive inerrogations, mostly in the small hours, demanding that he seperate himself from the Pope and offering him the Metroplolitante of Kyiv in the Russian Church. In the desert now with Jesus he steadfastly held as did all his brother bishops.
The Soviets sentenced Metropolitan Slipyj to eight years of prison and forced labour to be served in Maklakovo, Viatka, Novosibirsk, Boimy, Peczora, Krasnojarsk, Kamczatka, Inta, Jenisseist, Potma Vortuka and Mordovia. As we think of him led away to this ordeal, we can grieve for his Church. The Russian Orthodox occupied all the Catholic parishes. Being catholic was made a crime. All eparchies, religious houses and schools were suppressed. Half of the clergy were impisoned and a fifth exiled."


Does the Orthodox Churches recognize these events?


Elias

Elias,
It is true what has happened but Orthodoxy is not to blame. I can also argue the fact that many more Orthodox than uniates suffered and became martyred under the Soviets. It is good to reveal the evil that possessed the Russian Orthodox Church. However, the evils cannot be attributed to the Ecumencial Churches of Orthodoxy. You have not provided a detailed list of all the Orthodox Churches that collaberated in the communist's scheme to rid of the Uniates by means of persecutions. It is not fair nor proper to attribute the Catholic doctrine of "Original Guilt" to Orthodoxy. Rome has yet to reveal much more confessions about her roles which violate Holy Tradition. Perhaps I need to start a new thread about the role of the Papacy's crimes against Orthodoxy and her people. The Balamand Statement is a form of Rome's confession that has shown the sheep stealing that has happened in the Middle East. Rome has taken many from the Orthodox flock. There is a Judgment Day pending! I will pray for the Uniates return home to Orthodoxy before that Day comes.

I hestitate to interject here, but I'm not so sure that the Orthodox want to get into an argument over "sheep stealing" considering the great influx of disgruntled RC's into the Orthodox fold over the past 10 - 15 years. (Something I'm sure which is, in the very least, not discouraged, but rather encouraged by the Orthodox.) Granted, this is not without its reasons considering the great upheaval that has defined much of "Boomer Catholicism" since Vatican II, but I'm sure that an honest look at the numbers (whoever keeps 'em) would demonstrate a fair number of former RC's in many local Orthodox parishes today and comparatively fewer former EO's in the local RC & BC parishes.

My two cents.

Peace and all good things,
Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-04-2000).]

"demonstrate a fair number of former RC's in many local Orthodox parishes today and comparatively fewer former EO's in the local RC & BC parishes"


Dozier,

The same cannot be said of the Eastern Catholc Churches, especially the Ruthenian and Ukrainian (or Kievan) churches. Most of Generation X went West or left church life all together. Generation IX before them was the most dysfunctional, confused and religiously uneducated - they also were the first to intermarry en masse with Roman Catholics; probably because Western gals were better looking. Yet some RCs have gone Eastern, not many Protestant have found going Eastern Catholic easy, especially if one is a clergyman. The RC Church makes it difficult for a Protestant to become a married priest in the Greek Catholic Church since 'freedom of religion' is not an option and they must go to the RC Church. Unless one is getting married and the couple, according to Latin codes, can decide for themselve which church to marry in. It only works to the benefit of the RC Church since many go and get married in the RC Church. And our bishops take it sitting down. Many children have left the Ukrainian Catholic Church because their clergy still insist in worsipping in a foreign tongue. This habit goes against the tradition of Jesus, St. Paul, Cyril & Methodius, et al in speaking the language of the people. To hell with the children; so our parishes become geriatric community centers with a nice Mass.


Elias

New Friends, I hope,

I'm actively seeking conversion and eventually the priesthood, if God is willing, in the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. I'm a bit dismayed at the whining here. My attraction to the Byzantine Church from 27 years as a United Methodist Pastor is 1. The basic consistency of doctrine and truth. 2. The beauty of the liturgy. 3. Communion between West and East in obedience to Jesus in John 17.

Yet here I see much whining over "sheep stealing". How does one steel sheep, at least consistently, if believers are convinced of the purity and obedience of the said Church? Why not spend your efforts on finding ways to better train your members? Why not spend your efforts in helping your people see what they have to share with others?

If your intent is to grasp and hold onto your members without these factors they will flow through your fingers like water. I can hardly wait to become Byzantine Catholic. Don't you understand what you have. Please, don't waste your efforts on whining about the Latin Rite, or the boomers (I'm a boomer). Get on with the joyful task of sharing the faith and showing how every believer can share theirs.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

Thank you for your joyful post. You will find that the vast majority of Greek Catholics are content and spirit filled in their parish life. Maybe the problem is that those that are not turn to the internet.

One finds joy is a Christian patrimony (Eastern or Western) from experiencing it as a lived tradition. Some people who change jurisidictions within the Catholic Church become very hung up on fine points of jurisdictional perogatives, often, if allowed to ramble on long enough, contradicting themselves.

Welcome to the Catholic Church and (as a graduate of a United Methodist University) I hope you bring to Byzantine Catholicism a Wesleyan zeal.

Kurt

Dan,

�I'm actively seeking conversion and eventually the priesthood, if God is willing, in the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. I'm a bit dismayed at the whining here.�

Elias: Sorry. I was only challenging Rob about his Immaculate Protection Church. Yes, I have a bit of cynicism about me but it comes with experience.

�My attraction to the Byzantine Church from 27 years as a United Methodist Pastor is 1. The basic consistency of doctrine and truth. 2. The beauty of the liturgy. 3. Communion between West and East in obedience to Jesus in John 17.�

Elias: Item No.3 keeps me in the Byzantine Catholic Church too since there hasn�t been any better church arrangements offered since the Unia. To enjoy East and West as a Christian is wonderful. Being Eastern Catholic keeps both sides honest. Yet item no.1 is interesting. I don�t think any of our bishops have been consistent in their teaching. Latinization is not just a lay problem but something taught by our clergy and bishops. They were the ones printing the pew books with instructions to kneel at Low Mass, not the laity. Now they want to return to proper patrimony. Fine. It�s about time. Where in he�have they been? Since their decision to waffle the other way, many have left. Too much confusion in the ranks. No loyalty when there is no leadership. It makes me horribly sick when some cocky priests say �Hey, you folks, you are responsible for the church to happen, not me.� OK, but can the laity do anything without being taught first? We have two to three generations of self-taught cantors because teaching this �responsibility� only took them 100 years to do. What DO our catechist really know? I have seen many teenagers graduate from our catehism school, ECF, not knowing a damn thing. They are easy prey for ungodly forces. Why does this happen? One look at our esteemed 70-ish pop-psycology religious instruction material would make even ME go Orthodox. We serve our children garbage.

�Yet here I see much whining over "sheep stealing". How does one steel sheep, at least consistently, if believers are convinced of the purity and obedience of the said Church?�

Elias: Much evangelization in some Orthodox churches has been with other Christians, especially Eastern Catholic and the lack of recognition of their right to exist past and present. History is easy to rewrite � one just has to leave out some pertinent facts. But my complaint is the lack of honesty in some churches. Both Eastern Catholic AND Orthodox suffered tremendously in Communist countries. The Russian Orthodox Church is moving to suppress the Catholic Churches as if the Communist suppression was not enough. Will it be fair if the Catholic countries in the Europe told the Russian emigres to leave? The Poles did it to the Greek Catholics.

�Why not spend your efforts on finding ways to better train your members? Why not spend your efforts in helping your people see what they have to share with others?�

Elias: Impossible when they consider you either a heretic or a non-Christian. Sharing is not a part of the lexicon of some. Most conversations with Orthodox end with �We�ll be waiting for you when you come to Holy Orthodoxy.� It makes me sick. Patriarch Alexis, the communist collaborator, took hold of the Greek Catholic Churches in Eastern Europe and stated that the reason was because they wanted freedom from the tyranny of the Pope. Yet how many have questioned why they never tried to get �freedom� after 350+ years? I am aware that the sins of man do not blemish the Holiness or sanctity of the Unblemished Bride. Yet this idea has to be across the board. Orthodox Rob states that only the Orthodox Church is immune from Satan and only the Roman Church is in heresy for her sins. The Pope asked forgiveness on behalf of the Western Church. This is more than what has come from the other camp. Instead, Orthodox patriarchs suggest Final Solutions to the Uniate Problem.

�If your intent is to grasp and hold onto your members without these factors they will flow through your fingers like water.�

Elias: Much of the whining disgust is due to a lack of leadership in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Many churches are �priestless� and going down in numbers. The children don�t give a rat�s a�about learning Ukrainian language. Who gives a shi-? Obviously, the Powers that be haven�t checked the fences to see how many sheep are leaving. Do they care? The pressures of Christian Cannibalism (Christians evangelizing Christians) make it worse. The one word to summarize the mess is COMPLACENCY. We have been in this country for over 100+ years and we still don�t have the resources available to do what is needed. Our societies are more interested in golf outings and bowling statistics than evangelization. Just ask any parish priest to review their annual report. Look to see how much is spent on evangelization. I apologize for my own cynicism. I have been put in the crosshairs of discernment many times wondering which direction to go. Your desire to become Byzantine Catholic shows how the beauties of our faith and way of life is often missed and unappreciated. Father Hans Kung is a favorite of some eparchies to quote in their newspapers. He was also the one that referred to bishops as mitred pinheads. Can that same evaluation be applied to crowns? We have no leaders. We have authorities, but not leaders.

�I can hardly wait to become Byzantine Catholic. Don't you understand what you have. Please, don't waste your efforts on whining about the Latin Rite, or the boomers (I'm a boomer). Get on with the joyful task of sharing the faith and showing how every believer can share theirs.�

Elias: Good. But a care-taker/ baby sitting church has a long way to go if they want to evangelize. Maybe your tradition can inspire us. God bless.


Elias

PS: Again, forgive me for venting. I have given many years of service to my church community. I don't want recognition - just support and resources to turn to. I am tired of a church with absentee landlords who run to Mommy Rome first every time they want to play bishop. I am ready to give it up. Please pray for me. This has been a bad year.



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-04-2000).]

I've been Greek Orthodox and I've been Greek Catholic but for the last decade I've been essentially, an agnostic or at least a non-theist. After wading through this verbal blood-bath I am glad I am no longer a member of the body of Christ-you know-those people we will" know by the love they have for one another!" If someone like myself referred to you as Crusaders,would you be surprised? Where is the Christian Savior in all of this mutual hatred? Don't you realize how repulsive all this trivializing of the Gospel message is? Do you honestly believe your god is as obsessed with this game of trivial pursuit as you participants in this rant and rave session seem to be? Where is the Sermon on the Mount in all of this. If this is what Christianity does to people I say "thanks,but no thanks" to Jesus. Do you realize how unhealthy all this anger is for you? I will remember the words of my new "pope"-the Dalai Lama-and I will extend unto you my unfailing compassion and through my words I vow to be "a guide for those who have lost their way." In the Dharma of peace and enlightment-a boddhisattva. "We live happily indeed, not hating those who hate us! Among men who hate us we dwell free from hatred!...Victory breeds hatred, for the conquered is unhappy. He who has given up both victory and defeat, he, the contented, is happy... ."--Buddha--Christianity's fatal flaw is its lack of wisdom and its inability to provide an inner ethical check that is cognitive or mind-centered. Christianity's extreme dogmatism easily degenerates into totalitarianism which degenerates into slaughter in the "name of the True God and His Truth" - a god drenched with blood and not the Precious Blood of the Christ. What a terrible distortion of spirituality.

[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-04-2000).]

Scotty, beam me up !!!

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner