www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

Dear Elias and Soulsearcher,

For reasons that are beyond my comprehension both of your posts give me great courage and convince me that my journey to the Byzantine Catholic Church is the right one.

Elias, have you ever been a member of a main line protestant denomination? I doubt that anything could be more distressing to a Christian than the stupidity of most of the members and the heresies of many, if not most of the leadership. The calling of the Eastern Rite Churches is one of the highest and noblest in all of Christianity. Our Lord Himself prayed for unity. It was His final prayer in the full hearing of His disciples. Yet, you lack leadership to share this truth? That is sad and it is an opportunity that I believe God has set before you, and if God continues to lead, me as well.

My heart is broken for your struggle but, dear brother, protestantism has thrown over virtually all of Apostolic Christianity. That is still your legacy.

O, I have so much to learn and I wish I knew more than I did, but God still does honor faithfulness. Yes, many of your "leaders" have not been faithful. I certainly understand. Much of your material has been poorly chosen. You have to some extent compromised some of your liturgy. It troubles me that it is so difficult to find a pewless liturgy. That ought to be the standard. I long to lie prostrate before the Lord, not as part of some mid week oddity, but as a regular part of every liturgy. Last Sunday I got hold of a copy of the Liturgy. I used my own copy of the Liturgy before. I took note that the "filioque" text was in the old battered book but crossed out in pencil. Why don't we (may I use the first person plural?) have up to date copies printed with the Nicene Creed with the proper wording?

Elias, I don't know if you are clergy or laity. If I were clergy in a Byzantine Church today, I would want you in my parish if you are laity. If you are clergy I will pray that you act with boldness and no longer worry about what isn't happening. Thus you will be an example of those who are leading us out of darkness.

Soulsearcher,

I teach Comparative Religions. The calling of Bodhissatva is surely a high calling. You are called to take upon yourself the sufferings of all of humanity until all reach enlightenment. If I didn't love God so much I might consider being a Buddhist. Nevertheless, I respect your calling. I believe God will aid those who are faithful in their love for Christ. I am sorry that your experience with the Church has been so offensive. I can certainly agree. Yet I still believe that God is the source of enlightenment.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Elias,
Let me make one thing clear to you. The Orthodox Church is not immune any more than the heterodox churches from Satan. The Orthodox Church is the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. I cannot say the same for Rome even though she was present then and part of the Pentarchy. You as a Uniate will continue to endure much more struggle to maintain the Byzantine Tradition as the Latins in general remain condescending regardless what Rome says in her encyclicals. You have a grudge against the Russian Orthodox Church for what occurred in the past. I can understand that. Can you understand my stance on uniatism? This happened to my people and families in the Middle East. The Latins helped to establish the Uniate Churches who were originally Orthodox. Rome's supremacy is but arrogancy which is proven history. I have many specific stories to tell about the formation of Uniate Churches in my village and the problems that entailed. My parents married in a Greek Catholic Church. They were both baptized Orthodox and then came the Latins and they became Latins. My father and many others used to tell me that they became Latin because of the material wealth they gave out. In Arabic he called it buggaj which means a baggage of materials. My father never became a religious person and he felt that the churches were out for themselves. In the other words, it's all business and money. You have to thank Rome for her contribution. If Rome really cared for the Orthodox she could have presented her help to the Patriarchy rather than going behind its back and luring the Orthodox into her fold. Those days were bad and poor times for simple peasants without a religious education. The Arabs who became Latin became condescending towards their own Orthodox people. This is still evident amongst Latinized Arabs to this day. I don't know what you find that is Orthodox in Catholicism when Rome does not contain the fullness of the Church. She was breathing with two lungs and is calling for a lung transplant. Once the "infallible" mindset of the Papacy has been altered for the good then perhaps unity with Orthodoxy can become a reality. If Rome wants to continue with itself as being infallible and supreme and the Head of the Church there will not be any acceptance of her into Orthodoxy.

Elias wrote:

"Many children have left the Ukrainian Catholic Church because their clergy still insist in worsipping in a foreign tongue. This habit goes against the tradition of Jesus, St. Paul, Cyril & Methodius, et al in speaking the language of the people. To hell with the children; so our parishes become geriatric community centers with a nice Mass."


It seems that when Churches begin to see themselves primarly as bearers of a national tradition to the exclusion of their need to be apostolic, parish life is emptied of its vitality. Hence, solely septuagenarian Sundays! I have visited some Ukranian parishes, and was most unimpressed by their exclusion of English - even in their religious education classes! (One sees the same absurdity among RC parishes that still retain (for some reason) the full use of Latin in their liturgies.) Unless one is ministering to what is primarily a first generation immigrant community, people who want to revisit the Old Country should buy tickets through Northwest Airlines. The rest of us want to go to heaven!

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

Dan wrote:

"Yet here I see much whining over "sheep stealing". How does one steel sheep, at least consistently, if believers are convinced of the purity and obedience of the said Church? Why not spend your efforts on finding ways to better train your members? Why not spend your efforts in helping your people see what they have to share with others? If your intent is to grasp and hold onto your members without these factors they will flow through your fingers like water. I can hardly wait to become Byzantine Catholic. Don't you understand what you have. "

Well said. Our goal should always be to teach and live the Gospel of peace in peace with God and with each other. In that way, we can truly begin to "overwhelm evil with an abundance of good!" If anything, the lack of focus on the Gospel and the continued focus on the temporal, political struggles between the churches overshadows the glory of God that we should be reflecting in our words and deeds. Acting like we have only scandalizes the world and makes Christianity a mockery. Our power is in the humility of the cross of our Savior, the "silent" Lamb of God...demonstrating that the war against hell will be won only by love, not by contentious words. (I believe that in some of the Church Fathers they mention the need to avoid constroversy and argumentation about Divine Truths.)

"Please, don't waste your efforts on whining about the Latin Rite, or the boomers (I'm a boomer). Get on with the joyful task of sharing the faith and showing how every believer can share theirs."

I feel that I am well chastised here! Thank you for the reminder about what is truly important!

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

Gordo,

Please know that nothing I said was meant as a personal reprimand. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting any of you.

With that said, I appreciate your reaction. You have a level of wisdom that can be helpful to a seeker like myself.

On the subject of this thread. I think Jesus would hope that we would all apologize to each other and "lay our crowns at the foot of His throne". I am just a lowly seeker here. I have no authority to speak to any of you except as a brother in Christ. Yet, if Menachem Began and Anwar Sadat can sit down together cannot all who call Christ our Savior sit down at the Lord's table together for the sake of Christ and for the care for a fallen world?

Dan Lauffer

Dozier,

�It seems that when Churches begin to see themselves primarly as bearers of a national tradition to the exclusion of their need to be apostolic, parish life is emptied of its vitality.�

Elias: Exactly! It wouldn�t surprise me if the Ukrainian Catholics replace the term �Catholic� with �Ukrainian� in the Creed.


�Unless one is ministering to what is primarily a first generation immigrant community, people who want to revisit the Old Country should buy tickets through Northwest Airlines. The rest of us want to go to heaven!�

Elias: They might get a tax benefit if they petition the government to be granted Amish-like status. I recently attended a Ukrainian Catholic liturgy and the priest gave all sorts of reasons why there are no young folks in church. I agree that there are many �forces� out there pulling them away, but the glue is very week �in� church which allows those outside forces to do their job easier. First, when the Gospel message is in a foreign tongue, who can listen to such stuff? The old folk want to be like Old Country, but the younger generation are planning to get jobs in an English-speaking country! It is interesting that the revived L�viv Theological Academy mandates English for all its students. Maybe the younger generation can appreciate their church in L�viv since they at least teach English. The clergy can go on all they want bickering and excusing themselves for the lost sheep, but they were the ones that allowed it to happen. They failed to follow Christian Tradition of speaking the language of the people like Jesus did. I know the immigrants� first language is Ukrainian � but the fourth generation? Come on! Even the Russian Orthodox spoke the language of those in Alaska.

But the Ukrainian Church is going to vastly improve whent they change their official name from Ukrainian to Kyievin. Name changes always fixes all the problem. Got a problem? Change your name. There is nothing wrong with your TV set.

The clergy must also ask forgiveness. Yet it is the people's fault. This is always the case we are reminded.


Elias



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-05-2000).]

Elias -

If you think about it, by accomodating the liturgical language to that of the people, aren't the churches fulfilling an "incarnational" principle by imitating the eternal Word of God who became one of us so that we might receive Him and enter into communion with God?

Philippians 2:5-11

"Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus,
who, being in the form of God,
did not deem equality with God
something to be grasped at,
but made himself of no reputation,
taking the form of a servant,
and coming in the likeness of men..."

The Incarnation is the Great Accomodation!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-05-2000).]

Thank you for giving us the churchy version of "they're in America, they should speak American".

Intolerance towards people who speak a different language has always been one of the hallmarks of reactionaries in this country.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 04-06-2000).]

Kurt,

So why are the Ukrainians so intolerant of the English language. The L'viv Academy in the Ukraine mandates that all students take English. The Ukrainians in America are intolerant of their non-Ukrainian / English speaking children. No room for the Incarnational Church. Damn those bratty kids! Why can't they be as stubborn as us? You'd think after cramming years of Old Country ways and Old Country language down their blasted throats, they would 'appreciate' it.

The message is the Gospel, not a language. At one Ukrainian liturgy, I heard a grandmother scold a little boy about this. Of course, his parents were nowhere to be found. Gee, I wonder if that little boy grew up appreciating his Ukrainian Nationalistic church? He's probably at the same Roman Catholic parish down the street as his parents.

Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-05-2000).]

Kurt said:

"Intolerance towards people who speak a different language has always been one of the reactionaries in this country."

Let me be clear: I am not opposed to preserving the ethnic traditions of a given community, including, to a certain extent, their language. The last thing we should do is to subject all local/family/parish heritages to the bland "cultural" expectations of Beverly Hills 90210!

Issues arise when the desire to preserve what is ultimately transitory, and, if you accept the story of the Tower of Babel as true - which I do - a source of division due to sin, is at the expense of the pastoral needs especially of the young. If that happens, then national or ethnic preservation has become an idol. If there are still a substantial number of first generation immigrants in a parish community, then by all means, meet their need to worship in their mother tongue! Perhaps even compromise a bit by having two languages in the liturgy at different times. (The Maronites do that - Arabic and English.) That way everyone can participate to some extent and not at the total expense of another group in the parish.

Please, though, don't confuse pastoral sense with "intolerance". The Holy Spirit at Pentecost had it right, after all!

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-05-2000).]

Kurt,

Djflkadf jkfl wpoek pw epppp ddf;;; powmvcpo m0omevrk pmpmmv vmld a;lekr;el ppppp!

Porjvnfh vcneuyc snekf eragg poljjyuj ghrd sef wleiefj osne ppeh reteee ingqqs loik dkin en fopto sinl?

Elias

Elias,

I hope I am not taking any time away from you assistance to the America First campaign to close down all of those Roman Catholic parishes that have Mass in Spanish, but...


1. I am not one to tell strangers how to raise their children. If a family want to make an effort for them to be bilingual, I hardly think it is the Catholic Church's job to intervene. However, if to talk to my sister today, you might catch her at a moment when she is happy to let you raise her children for her.

2. If the members of a parish speak a language other than English, I would think it is within that congregation's judgement if they want Liturgy in that language.

3. Calling Americans who are bilingual intolerant because they don't use English exclusively seems to run contrary to the NCCB's teachings on racial and ethnic respect.

Kurt,

�I hope I am not taking any time away from you assistance to the America First campaign to close down all of those Roman Catholic parishes that have Mass in Spanish, but... �

Elias: First, you did NOT answer my previous post. I am still waiting for your comments. No comprehende?

�1. I am not one to tell strangers how to raise their children. If a family want to make an effort for them to be bilingual, I hardly think it is the Catholic Church's job to intervene. However, if to talk to my sister today, you might catch her at a moment when she is happy to let you raise her children for her.�

Elias: Bilingual is not the issue, Kurt. We should all learn another language. The issue of language IS the job of the Church. The Cyrillic and Armenian alphabets were inventions of the Church so they can evangelize. What do YOU call it when a church refuses to speak the language of the next generation - period? I know children who grew up feeling like cultural freaks because they went out into the world that didn�t speak their language used at home, whereby real �foreigners,� not 3rd or 4th generation Ukrainians, were eager to learn their language to succeed in life.

�2. If the members of a parish speak a language other than English, I would think it is within that congregation's judgement if they want Liturgy in that language.�

Elias: I am not against the use of other languages. You missed my point. It is the children of Ukrainians who do not want to deal with it anymore. Why do some people, including yourself, have a very difficult time listening to children? Maybe they would like to pray in English? The children in my parish sing at the top of their voices because they know the language. Yet it is the children who are getting fed up with the old folks rejecting the surrounding culture, the only culture the children know and experience. I am not suggesting a melting-pot. That false theory didn�t work. Yet look at the Asians who come to our country to use our colleges. They already know English fluently BEFORE they arrive. Even India voted to have English as their official business language. Again, even the revived L�viv Theological Academy mandates English to all of its students. Then again, these American-born Ukrainian children are so damn bratty and noncompliant in speaking Old Country language. I am sure the older generation is happy just so they can go to church without their teenage children or grandchildren. Who is serving who here? The parents and grandparents need to apologize too. Many parishes finally allowed an English liturgy after seeing most of the youth leave. Duh!

�3. Calling Americans who are bilingual intolerant because they don't use English exclusively seems to run contrary to the NCCB's teachings on racial and ethnic respect.�

Elias: The Ukrainian immigrants might be bilingual, but their children might not want to be. I grew up with the Old Slavonic liturgy not knowing a damn thing being said. I even contemplated going Roman since they switched to English. I know what the children are going through. As they say in the social service industries and government programs, �It�s for the children.� Is the NCCB the governing authority of the Ukrainian Church? Did you ever wonder why the Septuagint was in Greek even though the official language of the Palestinian Jews was Hebrew? Greek was the language of commerce just as much as English is today. Do your children a favor: teach them English; they might be more competitive in the work force. I have many Asian friends who would love to compete for their jobs.


Someone will have to stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ and answer why the language medium was more important than the Gospel message. Maybe you?

Elias

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I love to attend liturgy in any language, whether I understand it or not. I've fond memories of many masses in Mexico (oops, didn't intend all that alliteration), even tho' my Espanol is not quite fluent. Have attended plenty of Spanish masses here in the U.S. of A., too.

The only Ukrainian Catholic liturgy I've been to was in British Columbia, and I was UNCONSOLABLY disappointed when their English liturgy commenced: it was spoken, rather than chanted. The beautiful Ukrainian chant was reserved for the Ukrainian language....

I did get to one of their Ukrainian liturgies, but as I don't read the Cyrillic alphabet, the pewbook was hard to follow. At least the Ruthenians in this country print out the OCS phonetically!

CAPTL
sinner

[This message has been edited by CAPTL (edited 04-06-2000).]

Kurt -

�I hope I am not taking any time away from you assistance to the America First campaign to close down all of those Roman Catholic parishes that have Mass in Spanish, but... �

You bring up an interesting point, however, I would only point out the important differences between the Ukranians and the Spanish speaking peoples/parishes in the US:

1. Spanish is virtually the second-language of the US - Ukranian may come in a close 23rd.

2. There is an extremely large community of first and second-generation Spanish-speaking immigrants in the states. (see my earlier point on immigrant communities)I'm not sure that one can say the same with the Ukranians.

3. Spanish-speaking parishes are established in order to minister to the needs of spanish-speaking people, and to prevent them from feeling "cut-off" from the Church - thus falling prey to evangelicalism or indifference. It appears that by retaining Ukranian as the primary liturgical language in the states, the Ukranian Church is actually cutting off the young and causing them to go elsewhere...or nowhere!

I would also add that there is a plethora of Latin Churches and comparatively few Byzantine Churches in the States. This means that as far as spreading the good news of Byzantine Catholic orthodoxy, Eastern parishes should optimize the opportunity of their presence, no matter how small - like a little leaven in a big loaf! If one seeks to participate more fully in the new evangelization, doesn't it make sense that the Byzantine churches need to "open wide the doors" to locals who may not of the same ethnic heritage in order to bring them to the saving knowledge of Christ? Or is evangelization in the West solely the role of the Latins and their english liturgy?

As far as the IRONIC accusation of nationalism that you appear to be making ("America First!"), I can only say that were I in France or Uganda, I would call for the same principle to be applied: celebrate the liturgy in the native tongue! This isn't some "English is superior!" trip!!!

Pax,

Gordo, sfo


[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-06-2000).]