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Dear Defreitas,

Your theory is interesting about Nicholas' healing by Rasputin. I am more inclined however, to believe that he was demonically possessed, and that it is possible for the devil to perform miracles, however, incomplete ones. Such was the miracle of Nicholas...incomplete; but it won over the confidence of the desperate Tsarina.

Rasputin was not officially a monk, and was a self professed 'starets'. The fact that he could on the one hand, fool archbishops and royals, and on the other hand have wild orgies, telling the participants that the sexual activity would purge them of their sins, convinces me of his demonic possession.

False holy people have lived and convinced throughout history. (Today we would call them cult leaders). That is why we must cultivate spiritual discernment, and not judge one's spirituality on how well liked they are by us or how much personal charisma they have.
Obviously, Rasputin must have had great charisma.

True holy people such as some Athonite monastic elders have the gift of superior discernment. They can read a soul from looking into the eyes, and I have heard, that in particularly sinful persons, they can even smell the person's sins.

One cannot wonder how different history may have been if the Tsarina had found a truly holy 'starets' to help her instead of Rasputin.

In Christ,
Alice

Defreitas,

That's actually a very interesting theory, and one I hadn't realized up until now.

This may be the case, Adam, but I am unconvinced that all of this can be chalked up to happenstance. As many as there are people there are opinions on this subject; I don't think anyone knows for a fact, or really even needs to.

Definitely!

I, personally, am of the opinion that the real problem was the development of philosophy in the 18th and 19th centuries in Russia. Tsar Alexander II and other notables certainly did not help the philosophical and societal chaos. I believe this "domino effect" of sorts was a major part in the fall of the dynasty. I don't disagree however, that if the right tsar would have acted at the right time to counter these problems, that large-scale revolution could have been prevented.

Hm, so says his wife!

Logos Teen

Dear Adam (Theosis),

As I know it, Tsar Nicholas, Tsarina Alexandra and their children are officially called 'passion bearers'. I believe that this is a bit different than 'saint'. (Father Mark, please step in to enlighten us!!!)

That they were devout Orthodox Christians and upholders of the faith is a given. As for the suffering of the people, one must put everyone's situation into proper context. These people were royal at a time when royal meant living in a world of your own. I don't think that they could really step out of their own existence, anymore than most royals of the time, could.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

From what I've heard (was it mentioned earlier on this thread?), the title "Passion Bearer" is given those Orthodox Christians who knew of their impending deatha and accepted it with humility. I have heard that "passion bearer" is the lowest rank of canonization in the Russian Orthodox Church. So, technically speaking, Tsar Nicholas & Family would be Passion-Bearing Saints.

I'm open to correction.

Logos Teen

Dear Alice:

I am not sure of what you mean when you say "Nicholas� healing" miracle, are you referring to the note that Rasputin sent to the Tsar?

It's definitely not a miracle, just a very nice piece of educated foresight.

I probably could have told the Tsar the same.

Rasputin fooled many people including Bishops and Monks, let alone the Imperial Family, but he was always found out.

There is a story that he was beaten by a group of Monks and a Bishop in Church for having defiled a nun.

There is also mention in letters that even the Empress was concerned that he may have fallen into temptation.

Again he's not a saint.

As I understand it a "passion bearer" is considered a full saint, its just a particular type (Martyr, Hierarch, Fool for Christ, Hermit, etc.).

In Orthodoxy there are many more varieties of Saints than one would find in the West.

But I don't know if a "Passion Bearer" is considered the lowest rank in Sainthood.


defreitas

Dear Defreitas,

"Again he's not a saint."

I didn't even hint to that!!!!
I completely agree, and further, as an Orthodox Christian, in the tradition of spirituality I have been brought up in, believe him to be nothing short of 'demonic'.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Logos Teen,

I believe that you are right about 'passion bearers', if I remember correctly from my OCA friends. Thanks for answering!!

In Christ,
Alice

I know we've gotten some what off topic, but I couldn't resist entering into a discussion about Rasputin. I'll probably get at least one person who thinks I'am certifiably mad for saying this, but from everything I've read about him, I believe that Grigori Efimovich Rasputin was a man who truly loved God. He seems to have suffered from a severe personality disorder, which could lead him to lust terribly after the opposite sex one moment, followed by another, where he'd be prostrate for 24 hours or more, praying for the recovery of someone he had never met. Whether he was really responsible for healing Prince Alexei or not, will be debated to the end of the world, but it cannot be denied his presence truly had a calming effect on the Tsarevich and Tsarina. Was he a Saint ? (I only bring that up because I've heard it mentioned previously) That's not for me to say, but I do believe that God worked miraculous healings through him. As for Czar Nicholas II, I don't think he'd exactly be considered a Saint in Poland.

Have you never heard of 'prelest'?

Rasputin lived in a time of spirituality being all around him and perhaps being the only pursuit available to the poor. So, ofcourse he would dabble in it, just as we dabble in the secular pursuits popular of our day.

However, be very, very careful. It is very possible that one who prays or is a cleric can also have subjected himself to demonic possession... Not the type that 'Exorcist' stories describe, although they are also very real.

Infact, it is those who pose themselves as 'religious' who are often the most dangerous ambassadors of demonic activity and intent.

The East believes firmly in the evil of the devil working through persons. There are ancient prayers to deliver innocent persons of afflictions of all sorts brought on by the malevolence and evil of others.

In Christ,
Alice

Christ is risen!
Truly he is risen!

Dear all,

How is "Holy Royal Martyr" different than "Passion bearer"? I find it fascinating how there are different levels of sainthood in the Orthodox Church. I wonder if that reflects to some degree their different degree of glory in the heavenly kingdom. Hmm . . . interesting.

Dear Lawrence,

That is an interesting theory about Rasputin. It reminded me of an incident I read from the writings of Anna Vyroubova, close friend of Tsarina, Alexandra. In this writing she explains an incident which she had with Rasputin in which he was trying to convince her to have relations with him, and he finally snapped out of it and she asked him what caused him to act that way. He told her pretty much, "sin so that grace can abound the more." He seemed to have thought that he could get more holy if he gave in to his brute animal instinct. Oh well. Also, he was supposed to have delivered a lady from demonic possession before coming to St. Petersburg. Although, we will never know the truth about that. About him being a holy man who truly was seeking God, I must disagree. He seems like a man who prayed the Jesus Prayer a little too deep without proper supervision. My blood gets cold just looking at him, he looks so evil.

A sinner,

Adam

A martyr is one who dies specifically for upholding the Christian faith. Those who are killed for being a Christian are martyrs. In other words, they die for their faith, and do not renouce Christ in the face of death.

A passion bearer is one who suffers severe torment, or persecution, or even physical suffering and bears it and their death with great patient endurance, but does not necessarily die specifically for the reason of being a Christian. That is, they were not asked to choose Christ or death, but still demonstrated great Christian courage and patience in the face of death.

Holy Royal Passion Bearers, pray to God for us!

Priest Thomas