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Concerning "Extra Ecclesiam Nullas Salus"
a good book to read is The Ultimate Church and the Promise of Salvation. by Jerome Theisen
Stephanos I

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Originally posted by Stephanos I:

That is NOT to say that those who are outside the Visible Church are beyond God's grace, but that even their salvation is mediated through the Church.

OK� yes� yes... now I can read this better.

Your thoughts were much deeper than I had first assumed. I was expecting �troubles� from my opinions. I was reading you through my own expectations - the wrong �filters�. Sorry. It was a late night.

You are very right. The Crucifixion extends to all humans - past, present, future. And that crucifixion is the foundation of the historical Church. There is much deep to consider here.

-ray


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Originally posted by Matthew Panchisin:
I'm sure you and your good thoughts will be of much interest.
Matthew Panchisin
hehe... I just listen.

But around the coffee cup - I am the same person that I am here smile

There is mutual respect - and of course I respect all His priests.

I am also aware of the position that Providence has placed me in.

-ray


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Dear Ray,

God willing you'll have much good to say.

Here is a bit that Theophilus of Antioch has to say.

"Just as the soul in man is not seen, being invisible to men, but is perceived through the motion of the body, so God cannot indeed be seen by human eyes, but is beheld and perceived through His providence and works. For, in like manner as any person, when he sees a ship on the sea rigged and in sail and making for the harbour, will no doubt infer that there is a pilot in her who is steering her; so we must perceive that God is the pilot of the whole universe, though He be not visible to the eyes of the flesh, since He is incomprehensible."

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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Originally posted by Matthew Panchisin:
"so God cannot indeed be seen by human eyes, but is beheld and perceived through His providence and works.�

Matthew Panchisin
Absolutely Matthew - and it drives me crazy. I imagine that when people read the like of what you just quoted that they believe �Oh isn�t that poetic!� when in reality - the saint is telling it just like - it is.

I am 55 years old - and since the age of 23 I have been blessed to know several mystics and mystical directors - and I can tell you the number one thing on their minds is - Providence. A very real - conversation between individuals and God - almost daily. The events of this world are as the �body language� of God. If one knows some very simply principles - it is fairly easy - to �listen� to what God is saying - and even to know a bit about what God will do next regarding some situations. After all - he had made it very clear what his few purposes are. If we knew what a man�s goals are and his motivations isn�t it pretty simple to guess what the man will do next in some situations? Although we might not guess the details - we can know in general that the man will act according to his goals. It is the same with God - He does not mean to be a mystery - and so he took human flesh to himself. If there is anything that God really wishes to do - it is to reveal himself!! When he was with his apostles he did not hide behind trees or speak to them from behind buildings - no - face to face heart to heart. And now he does so in his Resurrected body - as the Word, the Logos, or as we call it today - Providence. We swim like fish in the waters, baptized at every moments with Providence which surrounds us - yet we ask �Where is God??� We are men who never - pick up the ringing phone.

The �conversation� is not an exchange of phenomena but in fact simple and plain within normal ever day events. I really do not know why people are starved for an experience of God when indeed he is speaking to them all the time and they ignore him. It is as if we would be standing right next to our best friends but rather than knowing that we are scanning the horizon with binoculars trying to locate him!

There are two things which are the essentials of the mystical life as the fathers of the church have called us to. The first is Providence - and the second is knowing something about how God works in a soul (the stages of the mystical life). God has indeed not �left the building� but it surprises me as to how many are well satisfied with knowing about God (intellectually) and not and experience of God (experientially). And the main problem is that without the doctrine of Providence and the accent of a soul into God (the stages of the spiritual life) many Christians would not know God if he bite them!

Some people are swooned by tearing icons and miraculous healings (and it is right to take note of these when they are genuine) but the -greater- miracle happens daily in the fact and reality that God arranges for us all events that come to us daily. This trouble that comes to us today or this seeming blessing that comes to us - all arranged with the purpose to form us (form our personality) into similarity with his own.

I am always amazed, thinking back to the genuine spiritual people that I have met over the years - how little God ever asked of them and how much He gave in return.

I will never ever forget one mystic that I knew once - I had just walked into the room where he was and he appeared to have the weight of the entire world upon him. I do not know how to describe it. His sadness was so profound - yet so peaceful - that I actually wondered how it was that he was breathing. I stood still for a few moments in respect for what was obviously something taking place. After a few moments in which I too experienced such profound sadness that I almost feared because it was beyond the capability of the human heart to hold - he raised himself - and I asked him �What did he say to you?� and he relied: �He said to me, �My people perish for the lack of knowledge of how I work in souls.�� Weeks later I was able to get it out of him that he had had a vision at the time I am speaking of. In that vision he had found himself on a busy city street� and all about him as he stood on the sidewalk we busy people each having their purpose� to go to work ... to get to the store... to rush to pay bills... to arrange fun for the evening... practicing what they shall say to the boss today... imagining how to complete this project or that... etc. On the sidewalk there also stood Jesus - calling to anyone and everyone "Here I am. My cross is light. I am here - among you." - and no one paid any attention - they are just walked by and did not even see him because they had goals to attain� security to secure� things to do.

People who have no experience in these things can quote spiritual books �Oh! Be careful! Delusion� etc� but my reply would be �the sheep know the masters voice� and are not fooled anymore than a wife would be by someone on the phone trying to imitate her husband�s voice and way of speech.

I do not know why Christians do not run to snatch up any book that the Doctors of the Church and so many saintly souls have written regarding daily Providence. Thier words are "I wish to know God and become a saint." but their actions are "I wish to go about my daily life and its concerns - and count on his mercy - when my time is done." His mercy is - now - and if one ignore it now what makes them think he will extend what they had already refused - yet later? It is like those who put off being baptised untill just before death thinking that they had been very wise to allow themselves so much time to sin during life - all to be wiped clean with a 'get out of jail free' card in the last. Not so. Not so.

Anyway - I digress as usual.
-ray


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Dear Ray,

Saint Constantine the Great waited until he was on his death bed to be baptized. Some of us have a hard time taking care of ourselves. Let alone a throne. It's seems from the perspective of the Saint Emperor Constantine his understanding was different. Well I suppose since we are not Emperors Saints or Mystics and can be fooled easily so we can't even think like them on occassion.

Anyway, I too have digressed more so and as usual not so well.

In Christ,
Matthew

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Ray,

Thank you for your comments. Them mean more than you know.

Jason B

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"DECREE ON ECUMENISM - UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO"? It can be read directly off
of the Vatican web site at:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_..._19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

In paragraph three you will find the following;

"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect."

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The more I study this moment in history, the more I take a decidedly minority opinion.

Pope Boniface VIII had imprisoned his predecessor, Pope St.Celestine, against his will.
Philip the Fair, grandson of St.Louis, was outraged by this cruel treatment by Pope Boniface VIII.

Phillip the Fair also did an effective job of supression the forerunners of freemasonry due to their satanism and homosexuality on Friday the 13th in 1307 Anno Domini. Secularists never assume they were guilty. I believe they were guilty.

(The demoniac masoniac revenge would come in the Anti-Christ movement of 1792, which inspired Bosheviki 1917)

The successor of Boniface, Pope Clement V took a more balanced view of Philip the Fair. (Admittedly, out of necessity)

Fenneyites usually cite Pope Eugene IV's Cantate Domini, not Unam Sanctam. Masonic and Vatican historians both have a motive for making St.Louis' grandson look bad. History is written by the victors.

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Ray,

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The entire Bull (letter) is not - infallible. The only infallible statement is the very last line (�we define and pronounce�) while the entire preceding portion is a �we believe and hold� (fallable) thing and is used as general interpretation of pertinent history and gospel based allegory - with clear intent to set the stage for the concluding infallable pronouncement.
I am very loath to admit, or at least exagerate, the distinction often made by people between "infallible" and "non-infallible" parts of official ecclessiastical documents, particularly when they are emmanations of the Church's Highest teaching authority (whether they be from an Ecumenical Council, or decrees of the Sovereign Pontiffs.)

In the strictest sense, yes, only the definition itself is "infallible" (absolutely guaranteed not to be in error.) However, this is not simply true of Papal Bulls or great Encyclicals - this is true of the documents of Ecumenical Councils themselves. Only the "definitions", and not the explanatory materials are quote "infallible."

However, the Church's infallibility is not simply embodied in the extraordinary magisterium (dogmatic definitions), but also in the "ordinary magisterium." This means, whatever is part of the ordinary teaching of the Church, should also be recognized as being of supreme authority. This of course is more nebulous, since it's not being pinned down to any one thing. However, when combined with the teaching that we are to receive the teachings of the Church with docility (and that only sufficiently qualified theologians are competent, with due respect, to argue the merits of this or that Church document), I think it means we should be very hesitant about "blowing off" such documents because they go against our private understanding of a subject.

To do otherwise creates a situation of lawlessness and confusion.

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It is well known that the Bull (letter from office of the Pontiff) was issued in responce to the imminent possibility of a forced temporal division of the church in France. This then should be its major context.
Yes, but the basic subjects being dealt with apply well beyond the context of a potential French schism. Most dogmatic definitions or more specifically articulated doctrines were a response to something bad in the world - this does not undermine the universality of their significance.

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The portion which states �that outside of her there is no salvation nor remission of sins,� has the meaning �There are no valid sacraments outside of proper apostolic church authority nor is there any valid Confession (�remission of sins�).�
I think I get what you're trying to say, but I think you're putting the cart in front of the horse. Let us simply recognize for now, that what it says is quite clear - it says what it says; outside of the Catholic Church (which visibly is that Church in communion with the Holy See) there is no salvation nor remission of sins. That is undoubtedly what the text is saying. That's not ALL that can be said on this topic, but that is definately what is being said.

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To any member of the church at the peak of Christendom - the �remission of sin� is only one thing - it is the sacrement of confession - the pre-requisite (conditioning of conscience) to all sacrements.
"Remission of sin" would also (in fact would primarily) refer to Holy Baptism as well. It would also refer to the forgiveness of venial sins which comes via prayer.

While I have great affection (as does this current Pope, obviously) for our Eastern Orthodox friends, there are some hard truths which also need to be stated - without which, texts like Unum Sanctum become impossible to understand.

Objectively speaking, the seperation of the Orthodox Churches from the Holy See and those Bishops in communion with him, does constitute (and still constitues) a schism. Schism is at the very least, a material sin - that means some part of justice is being violated, even if the individuals involved do not understand that they are committing a sin (thus the difference between "material" and "formal" sin...it's an issue of culpability or blameworthiness.)

According to the likes of St.Augustine, and later St.Thomas Aquinas (though may great Fathers taught on this topic), when a validly ordained Bishop or Priest goes into schism, they do not cease being a Priest; that can never be "undone." However, because of the lawlessness of what they've done, those receiving sacraments from them and who knowingly participate in their schism, may receive "valid sacraments", but they do so unfruitfully.

"Unfruitfully" - what does this mean? It means that while they receive real sacraments, they do not benefit from them; if anything, they only increase their sins. I'll give an example that has nothing to do with schism to illustrate the point...

Let's say we have a man who says he wants to become a Catholic, but only for social reasons. In reality, he is not sorry for anything he has ever done (in fact he actually relishes in his sins), and he looks at the teachings of the Church with an incredible degree of cynicism. This man goes through the motions of catechesis, and then one Saturday afternoon receives Baptism.

This man, really does receive Baptism - a real sacrament took place, validitly administered. However, because he had placed obsticals in his soul, while he received a real baptism and the "character" of this sacrament, he would not have received the "infusion of grace" which comes with this sacrament and is what causes the remission of sins. If anything, this man only sinned all the more, effectively being guilty of sacrelige.

Schism creates similar impediments to receiving the sacraments with benefit, including even the sacrament of Baptism.

Thus, in principle what Pope Boniface VIII articulates in Unum Sanctum is 110% correct. There is no remission of sins apart from the Church, the unique Ark of Salvation; there is only desolation.

However, we must return to that question of culpability. The reality recognized by the Holy See (particularly in recent decades) is that you cannot realistically look at the Orthodox, particularly centuries removed from the original schisms which divided them from the Holy See, and say with much confidence that here we have a collection of people who "know better." And this is really the crux of the problem people have when they read Unum Sanctum and allow themselves to be scandalized, or feel the need to try and explain it away - they forget the Catholic principle that conscience is king.

If a person's conscience is somehow erroneous (not understanding that they're participants to an objective sin), that they personally are not culpable of a sin. It's much like forgetting it's Friday (in the Latin Church) and not abstaining from meat or doing some equivelent pious work, and taking a bite of a hamburger; if the person genuinely forgot, the person is not culpable (though objectively, if one was committed to keeping the fast, it HAS been violated.)

In short, the Church has always recognized that invincible ignorance also known as "inculpable ignorance" of something causes the person to not be guilty on a specific point. The basic working assumption of the Pope right now, is that the vast majority of Orthodox are not aware or their obligation toward the Holy See. It's not even that they are not aware that this is what the Church (Catholic Church) teaches (though many do not, or have a grave misunderstanding of this); it could simply be that they sincerely do not understand their obligation here. Ultimatly, judgements on their real blameworthiness as individuals will be made by the Almighty.

"Schism" is something which as a sin, exists within the moral realm - a realm of the conscience.

However, the sacraments (if they are real, valid sacraements) are one. There is not two different Christs being offered at the Altar - one for the Orthodox, one for the Catholics. It is one Christ. The same is true of Baptism; wherever someone is validly Baptized, there is only one Christ they are being Baptized into - and by default, one Church, since His Body is the Church. This of course is true also of validly Baptized Protestants.

The point is, that no one who is truly Baptized is Baptized into anything other than the Catholic Church. That some such persons do not have the fullness of the Church's teachings or labour under misconceptions (which is true in differing ways of both the Orthodox and validly Baptized Protestants), does not change that fact - at best, such persons are like ill-catechized Catholics.

Those who are guilty of schism, are like dead members of the Church who are such for other sins. Those who are not so culpable, are in an irregular situation as regards the Holy See, from the Pope's p.o.v.

That there have always been some Orthodox throughout time who are aware of their obligation toward the Holy See, is manifest by the fact that there have always been Orthodox who sought out union with the Holy See - whether it be the contemporary of the Palamite controversies, Demetrios Kydonas (who wrote a wonderful pro-union work), the Ukranians at the Union of Brecht (despite what some Orthodox conspiracy theorists may say, this was a free will decision on their part), or the momentum which was spread through much of the intelligentsia of the Russian Orthodox Church prior to the revolution (which unfortunatly put something of a kibosh on this) toward union with the Holy See.

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Stephanos,

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Those however who are in invincible ignorance of the the truth will be saved according to how they have responded to what they have received.
Precisely. However, even in this there are some dogmatic/doctrinal considerations that need to be kept in mind.

- invincile/incuplable ignorance, is of itself not salvific, particularly if the person labouring under this is ignorant of the Christian faith itself. In such a situation (should it exist), the person without faith would simply not be guilty of sinning against faith - but they'd still be guilty of whatever other sins their conscience would be burdened with (and hence, liable to perdition.)

- According to the Council of Trent, theological, salvific "faith" is confessional; it is not pietistic, it has an object. The Church has always taught, that you cannot love (theological charity, essential for salvation) what you do not know. It was on this basis, in documents like the pseudo-"Athanasian Creed", that we are told that those who do not know God (Holy Trinity) and Jesus Christ (Second Person Incarnate) cannot be saved, and that this is the foundation of Catholic faith, it's essence. While the great teachers of the Church have debated what exactly constitutes the absolute bare minimum one need know as a Catholic (such questions were often posed by missionary Priests in the case of say, a dying pagan who wanted to be Baptized), what I've mentioned seems to be correct - particularly based on the Gospel of St.John where our Lord teaches that "(n)ow this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (St.John 17:3)

- Given this, many teachers (like St.Thomas Aquinas) taught that if someone was saved without the waters of Baptism and in an extraordinary way (having received from no man knowledge of the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ), it would require extrarodinary intervention by God; St.Thomas hypothesized something along the lines of a private revelation, or the ministration of angels (literally being catechized by an angel.) That such a thing could happen, maybe even in a way not seen by other men (such as on a death bed), is worth considering.

- One thing which the Holy See has repeated over and over again (which some do not understand, misunderstanding the Catholic Church's mandate for ecumenical dialogues and interfaith dialogue) is the need to avoid "religious indifferentism." Truth matters, and there is no salvation apart from the Church; and even here, only a truly inculpable ignorance of some aspect of the Church's teaching or one one's need to be united with the Holy See, can justify persisting in an irregular status.

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Dear Auggie:

Regarding schism.

Sevral years ago research by the Roman Catholic Church revealed that the excommunications issued by each - were of a personal nature (specific people) and not (as gained popular belief) excommunications of churches. A few years back the Catholic Church lifted all personal excommunications involved - and so did some Orthodox churches (Pope Paul VI) and a joint statement was signed by Pope John Paul II that by this act it is officially recognized that no formal schism ever took place.

Despite popular and common beliefs - the facts of reality proved that no schism ever took place. Not only do I believe the Church on this matter - but I find its evidence to be convincing. The Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches - were never and are not now - in formal schism. The word can not be used informally. And so there exists some level or degree of disagreement of matters between the some of the Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic church - and some lack of ecclesiastical cooperation - but not ever a schism.

The link to this official document has been posted at this board so many times - we should create a FAQ and have it there. If you need it - I will find it for you.

Thereafter the Catholic Church refers to the Orthodox church as 'seperated'... not divided or in schism.

The age old division and persecution of the Coptic Church as a monophysite church - was also corrected. It never - was - monophysite. Bothe the Greek (Byzantine) and Latin (Rome) believed a - misunderstanding. It is now recognised as an excumminication which had no real grounds and was a mistake. Excumminications after all - are not infallable theology. They are the pratical aspects of church organization. Yup - that is the offcial position of the Roman Catholic church - it was a mistake.

Strange isn�t it ? How so many people (including bishops and theologians) for so long can have a misinterpretation of something and teach their understanding as if it were cast in stone - to find out that all of them were - wrong. I wonder how many past church documents refer to the �schism� - that really never was.

Peace my friend.

-ray


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Originally posted by Auggie:
only sufficiently qualified theologians are competent, with due respect, to argue the merits of this or that Church document...

Augustine
If you stumble upon a competent, living, Catholic theologian� please point him out to us because he is hidden among the throng of incompetent Catholic theologians.

All chuckles aside - unless the title is bestowed by the Church herself (which when done is done irregardless of academia accreditations - as example Saint Catherine of Siena in the Latin church who had no formal education at all, and all theologians of the Eastern churches) the Church attaches no automatic assumption of competency to the title and no inherent authority within the church.

Such a state Catholic theologians came into that several were censured and the Vatican directed that they must sign a pledge of loyalty if they were to teach in Catholic institutions. It would seem clear to me that censured theologians and those refusing to sign the pledge - prove - their incompetence of Catholic theology.

The church has always encouraged its members to read, discuss, and research church documents. No theological accreditation necessary. All documents below revelation may contain human errors. And the Catholic is never free or released from his own dictates of conscience. As the Catechism of The Catholic Church states:

�"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey.�

�"He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."

�A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.�

There it is. The number one road to heaven. Beside it - all discussions of accredited theologians pale.

Having said all that - I do admire your evident interest in the things of the church. I have no problem with this discussion and greatly enjoy your contribution.

-ray


-ray
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