www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy "And in the Holy Spirit"

In the Creed, we have traditionally said, "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life." The Revised Divine Liturgy calls the Holy Spirit, "the Creator of Life." What is the reason for preferring "Creator" over "Giver"? I have never thought of the Holy Spirit as "Creator" but referred to the Father as such.

Ray

How novel! An actual theological question.

It is interesting that Wikipedia has multiple versions of the Creed under it's entry for "Nicene Creed" and even has the new and improved Ruthenian version there. One can compare many different English/American translations in one place. No one but the Ruthenians seem to use "Creator" over "Giver."

Also interesting is the fact that new translation of the creed from the RDL has "...and he is coming again in glory..." where as all others given there use "...he shall/will come again in glory..." I'm not an English major, but it seems to me that this translation uses a different tense, no?

Here's the link, scroll down to the bottom for the multiple translations in English/American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Latin_version_.28from_present-day_Missale_Romanum.29

I don't see a serious problem, but, off the top of my head, I'm wondering if that's not a subtle Latinization. When I was in formation for Diaconate at St. Charles R.C. Seminary in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, those of us who were candidates were expected to show up at Diaconal ordinations at the Basilica every year to render assistance in things like parking vehicles of guests, etc. At the ordination Mass, Cardinal Bevilacqua would process in while the choir was chanting in a beautiful, Gregorian melody, "Veni Creator Spiritus" .

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

The deacons are glorified parking attendants? I thought I had heard them all, but this is a new one!

Fr. Serge

Talk about slave labor!

Tim

Archimandrite Ephraim wrote an article on the translation of Zoopoios:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/zoopoios.pdf

An informative article: Archimandrite Ephraim's analysis does not bode well for the RDL rendering of the Creed's Ζωοποιον, at least if the Greek text is being followed. Then again, ironically, that is the stated intent of the 2007 translation. The Slavonic, following (perhaps just mimicking) the form of the Greek has животворящаго which is also found in "May our mouth/lips be filled" as животворящымъ, rendered "life-creating" in the RDL and 1965 translation. A form of Ζωοποιος does not appear in the Greek text of this prayer which differs in several instances from the Slavonic form.

Dn. Anthony

Saucy squirrel.

The offical translation of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America says "Creator":

http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/liturgical_texts/creed.asp

And, as far as I can tell, they know a little something about Greek.

Dave

Deacon Robert,


I love the Veni Creator Spiritus, just beautiful!

The Latin word, "vivificans", appears to be of Christian coinage to translate the Greek original. Seems to have the same roots: vivus + facere. In my 1962 Missal it is translated as "giver of life" in the Creed, and later in the Canon as "quicken".

The Romans already had a word "vivescere" which means substantially the same thing as "quicken", so my conclusion is that when applied to the Holy Spirit it is referring to the source of the "nova creatura", i.e., supernatural life in Christ.

In Christ,
Michael

If fact knowing the modern version of the language can create its own problems. I have discussed passages from the Hebrew scripture with a fellow with whom I work who is a native Israeli, and he would come up with some unusual translations until he consulted a dictionary that gave the "ancient" meaning of the words. If we go to the Greek I think we take our best cue from scripture, especially the Gospels and the other NT books. I presume the Council Fathers would form their theological vocabulary based on the holy texts; that is why the analysis noted above


should be carefully considered.

Dn. Anthony

I still question why the RDL was done from the Greek, and not the Slavic edition. Is the Slavic version bad?

My question IS a theological one...why is the Father called "Creator", the Son called, "through whom all things were made", and in this text and the one from the GOA, the Holy Spirit is also called "Creator"?
I understand the Eastern/Byzantine theology of the Holy Spirit as the "breath of God" and that is really awesome! Praise God! I am concerned about calling two Persons of the Trinity, "Creator" when we were taught in catechism that the Father is the Creator.

Ray

This is a valid concern regarding the Present status of the Ruthenian Recension as the primary expression of our liturgical patrimony. In this case the Slavonic of the Creed just follows -- mimics -- the Greek to which one turns for nuances and links to the usage in scripture.

Dn. Anthony