www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Any changes in the method of dating Pascha

As I sit here with a blizzard raging outdoors I am left to wonder why Pascha is so early this year. Is there any movement afoot to place Paschs in its' rightful place, after the Jewish passover? We seem to be the only Eastern Church to follow the archaic western methodology that is based on full moons after the spring equinox.

It does seem crazy. It seems like a simple thing to change as a another indicia of unity.

The Eastern churches use the moon, too. Here's how it's calculated according to an article on OrthodoxWiki. Another factor in why Old Calendar Pascha seems late sometimes (or Gregorian seems early) is the fact of the calendars themselves:

From 326 A.D. (the first year following the Council), Pascha has been officially defined as the first Sunday following the date of the Paschal Full Moon ("PFM") for a given year. The PFM is not, however, as commonly thought, the first full moon following the vernal equinox. Rather, the PFM is the first Ecclesiastical Full Moon ("EFM") date that follows March 20. EFMs are calendar dates that approximate the cycle of astronomical full moons (usually falling within 1-3 days of an astronomical full moon), which repeats every 19 years. March 20 is the date used for determining the PFM because it was the vernal equinox in 325 A.D., the year the EFM cycle was determined by astronomers.

This is not it's rightful place according to the best indicated sources of Nicea I which actually desired that no reference be made to how or when the Jewish Pesach is calculated.


The full moon after the northern hemisphere spring equinox is how everyone agrees it is supposed to be determined. The western method in its 16th century Gregorian reform is the newer, and in fact adheres correctly and as faithfully as can be expected to the desires of Nicea. It is in fact the Julian calendar and old method associated with it -- especially with the totally fabricated directive that Pascha must follow the Jewish Passover -- that violates the spirit and intent of Nicea. All things considered, Pope Gregory XIII got it right.

This was discussed somewhat in a recent thread.

Dn. Anthony

All I know and feel is that in our Christian community where everything has a proper time and place that Pascha falling before Passover is wrong. I would still place Pascha after Passover, even is Passover was determined to fall in August- tongue in cheek lest anyone throw a gallstone.

What if the Jews have changed their method or they are calculating it wrong? Do we still base our determination on theirs? Besides, by requiring that Easter/Pascha must be on a Sunday it is often out of sync with present day determinations of Passover and the sequence of events at the time of the crucifixion.

In fact, that is what the directive of Nicea wanted to restore and maintain: the sequence of celestial and historical events at the time of the crucifixion and resurrection, at the time of Jesus. It wanted Christians to celebrate their Pascha according to that standard and NOT according to subsequent coincidences of the Jewish determination of Passover and the Paschal full moon, as indicated in the above quote.

Without regard to when the Jewish Passover was celebrated, Nicea wanted Pascha fixed according to the unique sequence:

northern vernal equinox --- next full moon --- next Sunday

as at the time of Jesus. It allowed that tables could be used to approximate the time of the full moon.


Those who follow the Gregorian calendar observe that sequence of events.

Those who follow the Julian calendar do not (except when both Easters coincide). While the Gregorian calendar is quit stable (I think it will need tweaking around the year 5000), the Julian calendar accumulates an error of 1 calendar day about every 125 years (presently at 13 days) and 1 day error every 300 years in the determination of the full moon.

Dn. Anthony

ps The beginning of my previous post should have read "This is not its rightful place ..."

Most of us who follow the traditional Paschalia are not particularly concerned that others do not - the arguments for changing do not move us.

However, those who would like to have the "common date for Easter" have only to start using the traditional Paschalia again. Nobody has a monopoly on it and we will not be offended.

Fr. Serge

The tried and true works for me and mine too!

Boy, was that ever a great kolbassa sandwich I had for lunch today . . .

Sorry, Mr. Administrator - but what's Lenten fasting without a little added "penitential torture?"

A good night to you!

Alex

That is unfortunate. I used to be neutral on the issue until I researched it, motivated mainly by wanting to understand the criticisms voiced against the Gregorian reform, especially that it violated the norms of Nicea. I was open to accepting these criticisms as valid but found that, rather than applying to the Gregorian calendar, they instead applied to the Julian. Thus what I found was the exact opposite to the point that, and I say this not to be mean but accurate, the arguments as often put forth in favor of the old calendar are an unfortunate example of hubris.


That would be even more unfortunate. I say that because we should be rational about this and, presuming we want to follow the mandate of Nicea, we should be able to rationally and objectively reach a conclusion on what that Council wanted. This is important enough that I am not in the least in favor of those who have it right, those using the Gregorian method, yielding to those who have gotten it wrong, those adhering to "the traditional Paschalia."

I say this because there is unambiguous evidence -- objectivity -- to support it. As I said before, Nicea wanted Pascha fixed according to the unique sequence:

northern hemisphere vernal equinox --- next full moon --- next Sunday

as at the time of the passion of Christ, that is, recreating the sequence of these unique celestial occurrences each year just as they took place originally. This is just another way of stating, and experiencing, the liturgical sēmeron/hodie/dnes'/today. It need not have anything to do with a yearly calendar (Gregorian vs. Julian) but the very basic observation of celestial -- seasonal-- events that are beyond our manipulation, and a seven day biblical week (Genesis, creation) that no one disputes.

So, this year 2008, if we all could choose some place on earth, say Jerusalem, to observe the celestial events according to the mandate of Nicea: Then, as stated by Nicea, observe the spring equinox, observe the full moon, go to church the very next Sunday and celebrate Pascha. It's as simple, as straightforward as that. If we do this first, without any prior reference to a calendar to argue about, and then check the date (using the US civil calendar in order to be neutral), we will find it to be March 23, Pascha according to the Gregorian reckoning and not April 27, Pascha according to the Julian reckoning, the "traditional Paschalia."

And that, whether we like it or not, is a fact.


Dn. Anthony

Obviously I cannot and do not agree. But those who wish to go to Jerusalem for new-calendar Easter and celebrate (there are Latin Churches, Protestant Churches, and the Garden Tomb would probably be available) will not find me seeking to prevent them. Just please cease trying to deprive those of us who retain the traditional Paschalia of our right to do so.

I confess to some curiousity as to just what Father Deacon has read to bring him to his conclusion - materials in defence of the Julian Calendar and the traditional Paschalia are relatively scarce in English.

Fr. Serge

I made some great Keftethes on Saturday. Gotta enjoy them now before Lent starts.

OK, but it is not at all obvious why. Which facts that I presented are disputed?


My choice of Jerusalem was just an example for which the data happened to be readily available. Perhaps I've still not adequately made my point; let me try again. Allowing that both the Julian and Gregorian methods use tables and approximations so that one (I or anyone) cannot speak in absolutely general terms, the following scenario is representative and also illustrates the basic elements to be considered.

A Martian disguised as a human is living in the town of X. His mission is to study Earth culture and history and he becomes fascinated by the controversy over the dating of Easter. He discovers that the primary source for how it is to be determined is the council Nicea I, and finds three things are needed. One is the day of the week and there is no problem there since all -- Jews and Christians -- agree which day of the week it is. The other two are the determination of astronomical events of the Earth's sun and moon and this is his forte. So he can now determine Pascha himself, independent of the various calendars and controversies. He does this and sets out on the indicated Sunday, according to his unbiased reckoning, to observe the Christian worship of Pascha. What is he most likely to find?

He is most likely to find Christians following the Gregorian calendar to be celebrating Pascha.

He is most likely to find that Christians who follow the Julian calendar are not celebrating Pascha.

He may find, occasionally, all Christians are celebrating on the day he has also determined; occasionally none are.

He will never find only those following the Julian calendar method to be celebrating on the day he has determined.

I am doing no such thing. I am trying to "deprive" misinformation from being repeated with such presumption of being fact that it is taken to be the truth and passed on as such, viz. the canard that Pascha must follow the Jewish Passover.

If I recall correctly, there are two or three (English, internet) sources I encountered defending the Julian Calendar and the traditional Paschalia. I will find them and get back. There are a number of (often heated) discussions on various lists and forums, including previous ones here.


Dn. Anthony

ps BTW, X=Dublin so be on the lookout!

Here are the promised links/references and some others I found that I had bookmarked.
-- Dn. Anthony

In Favor of Julian ==============================================

On the question of the "Revised Julian Calendar
Father George Lardas
http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/what/e_Clndr-Lardas.htm

The Proposal for a Common Date to Celebrate Pascha and Easter
by Father Luke Luhl, Greek Archdiocese of North America, Denver Diocese
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/common_luhl.aspx

The Calendar Question
Rev. Basile Sakkas
http://www.roacusa.org/Catechism/THE%20CALENDAR%20QUESTION.pdf


Determination of the Date of Easter
Dr. Alexander Roman
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/easterdate2.htm

Byzcath forum: Julian Calendar Post256521 in favor
https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256625#Post256521


EASTER The Correct Date
The Reverend Greek Orthodox Priest, Fr. Constantine Regopoulos.
The Reverend Constantine Regopoulos, Oikonomos,
Pastor at Assumption Greek Orthodox Church in East Moline,
Illinois explains the correct date on which Easter must be observed.
http://www.new-byzantium.org/FrRgpls.htm


Various problems discussed ==============================================

John Parsells The Calendar Issue in the Orthodox Church
http://www.chrysostom.org/andrew/texts/parsells-calendar.pdf


Common Response to the Aleppo Statement on the Date of Easter/Pascha North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, Washington d.c., October 31, 1998
http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/1998aleppo.html

Towards a Common Date of Easter
World Council of Churches/Middle East Council of Churches Consultation
Aleppo, SyriaMarch 5 - 10, 1997
http://www.oikoumene.org/index.php?id=2677

The date of Pascha and the reason for the differences between the Western and Eastern Christians
Nicholas Ossorguine
Instructor in Liturgics
St Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute, Paris
http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/ossorguine-pascha.html


Dating Pascha in the Orthodox Church
Dr. Lewis J. Patsavos, Ph. D.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7050.asp

In my mind and heart, what is most important is that Christians celebrate our Lord's Resurrection together. As I read the debate about dating from the early centuries, I come away with the fundamental reality of the early Christian desire that all Christians would join together to celebrate our Lord's central victory over death TOGETHER.

IMHO, it seems that this is the most important theological and spiritual truth in this debate. I am EXCEEDINGLY happy to be celebrating Pascha with my Western brothers and sisters this year! It gives me great joy to know that all of us, Western and Eastern, Catholic and Protestant, will be singing hymns in honor of this momentous, history-changing, universe-saving reality!

What greater testimony to the universality of the Christian Gospel than to have all Christians celebrating together.

In this fashion, it still pains me that the Eastern community will not be celebrating together. Last year was absolutely awesome as all Christians throughout the globe were united -- a spiritual foretaste of heaven!

I would tend to agree and I look forward to the day everyone returns to the Julian Calendar for all feasts.