www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Envoy says Orthodox-Catholic unity unlikely

I'm afraid that this is precisely what this means. I don't see reunion occuring before the second coming of Christ.

Joe

I say without rancor that I disagree.

As a semi-related note, I'll point out a great string of articles on the value of union and legitimate variance. He points to the Fathers allowing much more disagreement for the sake of unity than modern theologians would countenance.

http://wanweihsien.wordpress.com/20...imate-variance-part-ii-two-other-voices/

It's broken into 5 parts; all of which are worth reading.

Personally, I think that there is a certain amount of legitimate diversity that can be maintained when restoring union. But the single issue that is the deal breaker for Orthodox is the Roman Catholic teaching concerning the primacy and authority of the Pope. Unless Rome removes this obstacle by abandoning the teaching of Vatican I, there will be no reunion.

Joe

I agree. Also, how can be the Pope the Vicar of Christ? Christ is here, amongst us. He is not a distant person and does not need a vicar. How is the Pope infailibil? Is he like the Heavenly Father?

I am more than skeptical regarding a possible re union.

m+

Personally, I think that the real problems are much closer to us than things like Papal infallibility--which, BTW, has only been exercised twice in the past 150 years--and UOJ.

The real problems have been aired on this forum in a number of threads that have dealt with the various lay movements in the Catholic Church that border on cultic; the New Age spirituality that has permeated so many places, parishes, monasteries, and seminaries (especially in the English-speaking world); liturgical abuses that are sacrilegious, especially in relation to the Holy Mysteries of Our Lord Himself, and the attitude of people when they are in sacred space, e.g., the temple; and the attitude of the average Catholic layman that sees the need to regularly confess sin(s) or to work out one's spiritual pilgrimage with the time-tested practices of fasting and personal prayer--just to quickly throw out four.

The big things will always come to the fore, but it's these orthopraxy things that are--IMHO--much more important. I have never been in an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic temple and seen people in t-shirts with vulgar messages or flip flops; just caught sight of lots of that this past Sunday in my daughter's parish in addition to the most casual irreverence at Communion time. And this latter seems to be the common practice there since I've seen it time and again.

One more thing that must enter the thinking of my Orthodox brethren is that so many of our people go to Rome and tell the various dicasteries what they want them to hear and then return home to do whatever they please. Rome can't be everywhere and the biggest secret is that Rome not only cannot monitor every situation around the world but there is no mechanism to rein in the problems that might be festering on a local level. There is no bishop's council to rein in or suspend an erring colleague.

In Christ,

BOB

The thread titled "St. Vladmir's Talks" will be of particular interest to those discussing within this thread.

Of particular interest to me is Bishop Hilarion's (ROC) talk entitled - Primacy and Catholicity in the Orthodox Tradition:
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/specials/svs/bphilarion.mp3

There have been too many cases, in the churches and elsewhere, where the fervent and violent disagreement about A/-A turn out to be different and not incompatible expressions of B. (For crying out lout, we can find this in Luther [as opposed to Lutheranism] and the Roman Catholic Church . . .).

The point of the dialogs right now is not some belief that they will resolve the differences, but to narrow and figure out what the differences are, and what is agreed--already, the differences sure seem smaller than they did 100 years ago . . .

To not attempt to heal the Sin of Division would itself be sinful.

And as for supremacy and infallibility--I have no doubts that an Ecumenical Council could solve these issues, possibly by refining the doctrine and preconditions of it to the point that the Pope ratifies a (near?) unanimous position agreed upon by a large enough group of the worlds' bishops that Orthodox would alreayy accept the position as binding.


hawk, always skeptical when humans pronounce limits upon the Holy Spirit

Blessed Exarch and New Martyr Leonid Feodorov and other Byzantine Catholic martyrs offered their life for union of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Union will happen!

The Holy Spirit will have to "force the issue".

Dn. Robert

Agreed. Perhaps when the persecution comes...

I will remind us only that it took a radical Muslim scourge to bring Catholics and Orthodox together in communion at the last Divine Liturgy offered in Hagia Sophia.

And dowchak is correct - who can set limits on the Holy Spirit? What is impossible for man, is always possible for God.

Gordo

I whole-heartedly agree.

AMEN!

I'm reminded of the tale of John, a recently discharged marine attending college on the GI Bill.

John was in a theology class with an atheist professor.

The professor sought to convince the class there was no God, and announced, "If there is a God, I invite him to strike me down. I'll wait right here for fifteen minutes."

So the class watched nervously. Three minutes, five, ten, twelve.

At fourteen, they started to relax--but at 14:45 John left his seat.

John walked up to the professor, wound up, and punched him in the jaw, knocking him unconscious.

When the professor came to, he was furious. "What did you think you were doing?"

"Why, striking you down, of course."

"It was God I invited to do that."

"God is busy watching over soldiers still in Iraq. He sent me to help."



I always had trouble restraining myself when that fundie street preacher came through Iowa state ranting and raving about evolution. I really wanted to challenge him, demanding to know upon what authority the creature put limits on the Creator as to how He is allowed to create the world.

But then, I'm the one with the extreme version of Fr. Bonchonsky's proposal about talks (one aid per Patriarch). I'd convene a new, literal conclave in the original sense of the Romans upset at the cardinals . . . leaky roof and limited diet. They can come out when they can celebrate the Eucharist together. (Perhaps the MP could host the pentarchs--is Russian wine bad enough? :))

hawk